I'm thinking the more readings the better. And then there is the human variable, as to how slowly or quickly the wheel is being turned. You mentioned about 2 inches of wheel movement per second. This I have trouble with measuring precisely. Assuming others might as well.
definitely with increased castor the overly light feeling, lack of feedback with little castor was greatly diminished.
Owners with recent alignment measurements should be recruited to do these simple tests.
My readings were taken at approximately 15 miles per hour in a large empty parking lot.
I did my best to turn the wheel slowly and basically do a double lane change.
I could repeat the measurement within .1 lb time and again turning in both directions. So I feel confident I provided reasonable measurements.
But will we all have the same idea of what turning the wheel slowly is?
The more readings the better.
Come on guys. Go out there and measure your steering force. It only takes a few minutes !

 

Leigh,
Do you think there is much difference in the force while driving between a stock small block and a stock big block car?
I know there has been much discussion about this speculation in the past.
It might be interesting to see if there is any fact to the myth!

 

Well GM data says a LT-1 adds 32# to a stock '71 front end wt of 1623#, an LS6 (aluminum heads) adds 62#, and a LS5 (iron heads) adds 199# to the front, So I would say yes for the iron head version.
A/C and PS adds back another 98# also. PB only 8#. Even the auto adds 57# to the front.

So a fully loaded BB could get quite heavy in front.
Even the driver adds 56# to the front. So a fully loaded car could hit 2074# front.

A lot more weight on those two tires!

 

I was a bit surprised by the changes in the steering effort. It was tough to get a good number, but 4.5 lbs came up a bunch. I'll need to confirm my alignment and try again.

With a lot of caster, in addition to scrubbing the tires (hence the much higher static number), you are also lifting a fraction of the weight of the car. 10 or even 20% difference due to the engine? I don't know that you'd notice, compared to even one degree of caster, at least while the car is moving. At rest, you probably would notice. But you could do the experiment with a person standing on the front crossmember.

If your aluminum head LS6 still weighs too much, get one with an aluminum block!

 

OCB

I know I have promoted manual steering alot on this forum, and in recent threads. But,......I do not want to influence anyones decision when the conversion is fairly labor intensive. Manual steering DOES require more effort on the wheel than any power steering system, factory or Borgeson. I run my 77 with the tie rods connected to the power steering hole in the steering arm because my 77 does NOT have the other hole machined. I also run the smaller 14 inch 77 size steering wheel. That provides less leverage than a 15 inch 73 wheel. Lastly, I am running about 2.5 degrees of caster.....not the 5.0 degrees many of you want to run. All of these are factors in the force required,....some make it better, some make it less better. Big increase in caster is really going to mean you are truly LIFTING the car in a turn....which would add to the force required.

Point is,.....manual steering is what I like best, compared to the factory power steering. It removes ALL the power steering pumps, belts, and poorly designed factory power assist, and makes the engine compartment simpler and less cluttered. But it DOES come with a price, and that is a heavier steering effort. I don't want to be responsible for swaying your decisions with the idea that it steers as EASILY as any power steering, because it does not. It is heavier. I simply find it is NOT so heavy that its unpleasant. In fact, I actually like the road feel, the feedback the road brings to the wheel, and the effort increases in a turn, which makes me feel like I am truly DRIVING the car. It made the car far more FUN for me, and truly a unique experience that I love more than any other mod I did on the car. But, in parking lot situations, it takes some muscle. But none of it makes me regret making the change.

One last time.....it IS heavier than power, and with a big block it may be even heavier.

Just trying to be fair. If I get so old and weak I can't do it anymore......I may consider Borgeson, and I will be calling Leigh on how to make it work best for my style of driving. I hope that day never comes.

 

I think my only issue with manual steering is that it gets progressively heavier the more you turn. The auto-correction is strong, due to the caster (which is good), but if you want to build a drift missile, or an Auto-X slalom machine, you'll want the Borgeson steering box.

I still love the manual steering for the roads I drive, and the car I built for me.

 

Actually caster causes the lifting force at only one wheel, the inside of turn wheel. The other one actually goes down because the spindle travels in an arc. So basically the two forces offset each other.
What actually causes the strong self centering affect is trail.
According to an engineering site, many cars these days run between 15-35mm trail.
Trail is the difference between where the spindle axis hits the ground, vs tire vertical line.
The more the tire is behind the spindle axis, the stronger it wants to go straight.
Adding caster increases trail.
Guess I'll have to calculate what ours is.....

 

Ok got it.
2.5* caster would have 14mm trail
5* caster would have 28mm trail.
Twice the self centering affect.
Likely ditto on force at the wheel rim.

 

In the meantime I have tested a C3 myself with a Borgeson box. Unfortunately we were tight on time, and I just could not get consistent readings. So I am not going to publish them here until I trust them. Bad data is just bad data and needs to be thrown out, it needs to be consistent.

I played around with my S-10, my current driver, and I was able to get very repeatable reading by going in a circle in a parking lot at low speeds. Perhaps Scott and I can try again.

I also have shipped my box to Turn One and am awaiting their initial testing results.

The 27-30 in-lb # for the Borgeson above was found on the internet. I will be much more confident when my Borgeson gets bench tested.

 

Just got a phone call from Turn One today.
They have bench tested my Borgeson box, and it was 28 in-lbs.
(That would be 4 # at the wheel rim)

They will revalve it with a stiffer torsion bar to their "race spec" of around 45 in-lb.
(That would be 6.5# at the rim).

And they will re-bench test it before they ship it.
Great service!

 

Any update on how this turned out? I’d really like to get a bit heavier feel. [

QUOTE=leigh1322;1603581233]Ok some of you should like this.
I am going to modify my unused & unopened Borgeson box to increase the steering feel.

I became concerned after hearing many reports that the borgeson box felt very "light" from several C3 owners. So I dug deeper.

You see I had a very competitive Pro-Solo car back in the 80s/90s and the Saginaw 800 box it had was highly modified by Tom Lee of Lee Power Steering. He basically gave me a Nascar box back. It was firm and had amazing feel. One of the main things they did was change the torsion bar inside. That is the main ingredient that changes the "feel" from little finger only; to two hands on the wheel. Felt better than rack and pinion or a manual box. And more consistent. And I have raced both. Tom Lee was the one who practically invented race car power steering 40+ years ago. Reducing the flow or the psi is a commonly tried method to alter the "feel". Lee and PSC both say that is just a band-aid, and does not give the correct "feel" or pump life. Doing that can also kill the pump quickly. I heard of at least two "modifiers" who played with their PS pumps, who replaced boxes or pumps twice in a couple years. (Well they were Camaro guys). Not for me either. Do it once but do it right.

So I first called Borgeson and he confirmed the C3 box is a Delphi 600 box, and has a valve that gives around a 30 in-lb "feel"
Great starting info! .....But yep too light for me. My old racer had 46-48 in-lb.

So I called Lee and they do not handle the new Delphi boxes. (Tom has retired but the business lives on)
https://leepowersteering.com/
But... being a prior customer he gave me a referral to Sweet mfg. Who also referred me to PSC Motorsports...

(The Delphi boxes reportedly have a rack-n-pinion feel. They should, they use the exact same valve setup. They are a great upgrade even over the old '70s 800 Saginaw boxes)

https://www.pscmotorsports.com/
PSC Motorsports custom builds a lot of Deplhi 600 boxes (like the Borgeson) for the Jeep and the Camaro crowd. They also do service/rebuilds/upgrades.
Everybody has their specialty.
Borgeson adapts the Jeep Cherokee box for our car, and does the same for the 57 Chevy and many others. They do not even rebuild or service the boxes.
Sweet mostly manufactures parts.
Tom Lee and PSC do custom blue-printing/rebuilds but Lee only does the old style GM 800 boxes
PSC does both.

So after a little discussion with PSC tech I am going to send mine in for a upgrade & test. He has not done a C3 box yet but said it looks exactly like the Jeep box, except for the welded on mounting bracket.
They will upgrade the torsion bar from a .195" dia to a .220" The .195" is stock in the Jeep Grand Cherokee and is one of those light valves that give you one finger steering. Either 25 or 30 in-lbs. I am looking for a 35% upgrade. Cost is just $225

PSC has the torsion bars in .195/.210/.215/.220" and more. .220" is the strongest one they recommend for the street.
He says his recollection is the .220 was what the IROC Z28 used, which had the best steering feel of any GM car with recirculating box PS decades. My recollection from Tom Lee is that was a 36 or 38 in-lb box.

My race car had a much stiffer one and neither I, nor PSC, would normally recommend anything that stiff for the street. At least not without caution. You could though, my 48 in-lb torsion bar box had the heft of a good firm manual steering, even with sticky 11" DOT 0 rated autocross tires. But that firm feel never varied, whether in a parking lot manuver or at 140+ mph. It felt "correct" in a "stiff" car. I know there are manual box "fans" on here, but I will never go back to a manual box again after experiencing that one. But neither do I want one finger PS, like a "Jeep", in my C3! So it's mod time!

PSC will replace the torsion bar and test the turning psi for me. If it is not the 40psi I want they will try another torsion bar. My math thinks the .220" will be very close the first time. That will "feel" 38% stiffer when you turn the wheel than a stock Jeep box or a C3 Borgeson box.

I will keep you posted!

New Borgeson box going in for surgery & a valving update

If you look on the end of the shaft, you can just see the little "bump" that is the end of the torsion bar. That is what turns the "assist" on or off.[/QUOTE]

 

I got it back from Turn One and am sure I will be satisfied .
But I have not finished the car yet.
Some stock PS C3s are around ~4# at the wheel rim and so is my Borgeson box as tested. (~28in-lb)
Honestly that is the same as my wife's minivan.
My box is now 6.5# at the wheel rim (45in-lb) .
So it is ~60% firmer.
It should be roughly like a C6/7 ZR1 or a Viper.

Edit:
Just drove a couple PS C3s this morning. Some have pretty decent firmness (4#) and for some reason some of them are half that (2#). That is about little finger level. It must have something to do with the pump and/or control valve combination. You never know what is on these 50 year old cars. My experience is that the more original the parts are, in the PS steering, the better the feel is.