As some of you know, I posted a thread about the road 'feel' /feedback of the rack/pinion steering system some days ago....we all wen round and round about this, I was looking for input from the steeroids installs to compare with my own experiences....and full well knowing that well like other topics, one 'feel' is worth a thousand words....';-)))


Some of you may recall I finished my install allmost a year ago, along with a whole bunch of other changes/repairs/mods, essentially I went crazy...

at any rate, ONE of the things deteriorating over the previous 5 years or so was the lower ball joints....now when buying tires last time about 3 years ago, I had it aligned here in OP Florida...I can't remember where though....
did not keep receipt..oh well.....
well about 3 months ago I noticed with shock in my garage the front was AFU'd....terminal....wheels very obviously out of camber and somehow with all the crap going on, I completely overlooked it....getting old and ornery I guess...blind too.....well I was noticing the car seemed looser than it first was last spring...it felt SO much better....
well anyway, I replaced the ball joints, and inspected twice every other steering/suspension point, magnafying glass to the frame, every damn nut and bolt, I went nuckin FUTS......I was pixxed too, ruined a set of tires that would have had another ten thousand miles in them easy.....

so anyway,..new lower ball joints...water got in the right one caused rust and so premature failure...driver's side was fine...as was everything else....BUT both tires showed about the same wear on the INSIDE tread....natch...
nice point of the C4 bonnett....
at any rate...I found the previous alignment was still visibly out....and I squared off the garage floor with plywood shims, leveled up the car all the way around...and took a look....I was flabbergasted....the amount of shims I had completely ignored even with the engine out...forest and trees, I guess...

well anyway, there was enough shims in there to build a motorbike...

SO I just proceed to do what became obvious, hense my inquiry about wheel alignemnt proceedures....somehow things just were NOT right at these shops/whoever here in Florida....oh well...too late now...
so I do my own camber/caster.....and another toe in adjustment.....fine, more or less....

BUT, I noticed the 'feel' of the wheel was somewhat light...car tracked well on these rutted roads...but it allways did with the rack in it...even with bad ball joint on pass side....

well anyway, I have been playing with wheel alignment now....and have ernestly tried VERY hard to follow directons exactly, understanding what's happening anyway....SO...here is the screwey part.....

I align the thing yesterday afternoon...finally drive it down the street a couple of miles this morning....tires squeel badly on corners...car turns in too easily too.....not right....I look at the tires and they are badly towed IN, instead of the previous OUT slightly.....OK....

so this early afternoon I decide to go back to doing it again...gotta learn somehow....and this time changed proceedure once again....found the tires to be decidedly towed in for sure....3/8 or more on driver's side, and 1/4 or more on pass side....OK.....so now I redo the entire setup and realign the toe....

NOW.....the other week ago....I pulled the toe in adjustment off the line spaced off the wheels equally on both sides/ends of the car rear line set off wheel face 2" and front the same....measure the tire beed differances.... and set the front wheels... then find out in fact it was rong because the rear has more width then the front by .8 inch.....ok, that .4 or 3.8 inch /side wider...

well, yesterday I located and measured and plumb bobbed very carefully the centerline of the suspension, using front mount bolts, and rear center setup in center of differential...measured out a yard on the sides front and rear...and set the line up off jackstands in the referance to the chassis/frame/suspension centerline using plumbbob again...so now the strings are set up about close as I can get...and so I try again....way too much toe in...way too much...

SO, this afternoon, I set it up again...getting USED to this by now...and I go off the wheels again...this time though I space the rear line at 3/8 inch LESS off the wheels than the front to make up for the track width....
OK, one thing I found...this is very critical...if that string is off a bit, it toss the front end around a LOT more than I would ever suspect....so, I realigned the entire front again....NOW it seems/looks fine....just a slight bit of toe in...

so my questions are....where are the most likely places I goofed up??? meaning in the frame centerline attempt....I realize the tracking goof lead to too much tow out in front.....but don't understand the differances between what happened this morning, and this afternoon....too much toe in this morning....

sorry to be so winded.....

life's a bitch....

GENE :D

 

OH, on the 'FEEL' issue....with tires towed out slightly, the wheel if very light feeling.....with the tires towed in viciously, the wheel was plenty of feel...to much....yeh, well no sh it......

with the latest, hopefully correct setting...the 'feel' is fine....lending credance to the comments about alignment on my road 'feel' thread on racks.....

GENE

 

Gene,
You're a card, the next time I'm in Fla I'm going to have to buy you a beer :cheers:

I don't think finding the actual centerline of the car is that critical as long as you pick one center line for both the front and rear. Think of it this way, if the centerline is off by 1/4" you car will crab by 1/4", not really that much.

What bothers me the most is that you said you jacked up the car, and took the wheels off. Did you support the car on it's susprnsion or the frame?
If by the frame wouldn't you get a lot of toe steer?

I'd use two steel plates with grease between them under each wheel (two at a time ;) ) and adjust everything on the ground, with your weight in sand in the drivers seat too. Or I just adjust, roll the car back and forth, adjust again...

Also remember that rear toe will make the car loose too, so you have both ends to worry about at the same time :U

From what I understand, basically the front toe determines how the car steers going into a turn, the rear how it behaves through the turn...

OBTW, I spent big $$ to get mine professionally done to my specs, I didn't like it either so now I just tweek it at home. I can make it feel however I want...

 

I do all my own alignments and I found you can not set toe with a tape meaasure. I tried and tried and finally like you could never nail it down. Kept always moving so I finally built myself a proper toe gage and after a few attempts it was right on. I kept the toe gage in the main garage and whenevere I can home I would drive straight up the driveway , stop the car and slide the gage under the car , front and back wheels and once set with the gage it never moved.
My homemade toe gage consisted of a 1/2 inch stainless pipe, welded to it are 2 mounts to keep it sitting on the floor and 2 adjustable pointers about 12 inches long. They are adjustable, the value doesn't matter it is only the difference.
All the toe measurements are taken off the center of the tire or at 9 oclock and 3 oclock.
You can never jack the car then take measurements. I always came up the driveway , stopped carefully, shut the car off and took the measurements.

 

427V8, I read my post there again, department of redundancy department, and I didn't mean to inferr I ever jacked the car up.....I drove it into the garage and on my alignment pads....which are formica boards in position to offset for level right to left, and with a collapsed beer carton....read slick easy to spin on the top for the tires to sit on....seems to work pretty well....there is only a 1/4 inch differential between the floor so one of the pads is shimmed with 1/4 inch of plywood....the back is out by about 1/2 inch side to side...but I didn't consider that enough to worry over....

Norval, I hear you in the string department vs the pipe method you use...thing is...your pipe only works off both tires....you can compare the total tow in but not how much on either side....so how do you compare that???

GENE

 

I initially set it up with my laser level. When I was installing the trailing arms I used the lazer level to project the the rear calipers onto the front spindles and the front onto the rear. Initially the car was on stands and every rotor was shimmed and torqued with 5 lug nuts with the worst rotor having .003 runout. This was just to get me started then I used the lazer level to try and square everything up.
Later I used the caster camber gage to set caster camber. I also have a drive on hoist with the sides over say 14 feet almost perfectly parallel. I use this to make sure back and front are both pointing staight ahead.
Anyway the point I was trying to make before is you can not measure toe with a tape measure. Things are in the way preventing accurate reading. I know you can put plates on the side of the tires and measure from them etc etc.
But from experience and frustration I learned to forget the tape measure and go with a toe gage. I can repeat my reading day after day with the gage and with the tape measure they changed by the minute.
I finally got the car set the way I wanted and know I am totally dismantalling the front again to make more changes.
For turning the wheels for caster checking I use flat sheet metal plates on my rugged shop floor, mark 20 degrees on the rug and you can just grab the wheel and it turns left or right easily. Makes life easy to doing aligments.

 

One more thing to watch out for is the mounting of the rack or pinion. I don't know which is which but if the alignment is not perfect, say the part mounted to the frame is slightly behind the outer tie rod ends when you turn and the alignment suddenly becomes a straight line your toe suddenly jumps because of the triangle that was created in a straight line now becomes straight when going around a corner.
My thing this week is roll centers and I am reading , sleeping and thinking about A arm setup, spindle length and ultimately roll centers. I have a good book on the subject, advise from 2 guys who really know suspension and trying to get a handle on our front ends.

 

 

How are the trailing arm bushings and other rear end components? I might have missed it in your post, but those can effect steering as much as the front end stuff.

 

mrvette I don't know your setup but if the tie rods and the track for the rack and pinion steering are not in a striaght line the tie rod forms the hypotinous of a triangle but when you turn this hypotinous? becomes the straight line and it is suddenly longer then a normal side of a triangle and your toe suddenly becomes alot greater in a turn but as soon as you straighten the wheels the toe is back to normal.
I just got a manual on setting up a stock car and they go into this alot with a warning about toe change,
Another warning that goes unnoticed is that the ends of a sway bar MUST come off at 90 degrees. I know the factory come off at an angle but this causes alot of problems. Even the linkage from the sway bar to the lower A arm must form right angles.

 

Norval, the thing is, the stock setup has the tie rods inner ends further to the rear of the car than the knuckles....as I recall, anyway...I should go look sometime again....lost sight of that...will check my vette when wifey poo gets home tonight....

The sway bar setup is stock, so I have to look again....at that point I really have to start wondering IF it matters for a street machine or not.....

I have a VBP rear sway bar....and a stock 1.25 nch front bar....I suspect I should take the rear off, and thin up the front a bit....wife objects to the still ride/suspension I have heavy 550?? lbs springs in front....troubles...I suspect...can't win....

GENE