that's the caster, if it's done w/ the upper arm behind the lower arm the car will dip in more aggressivly during braking. Dring cornering it's a way to get more load on the front. Because of the nose dive the weight will be transferred to the front. It's kind of what a bike does.


[Modified by Twin_Turbo, 1:21 PM 5/9/2003]

 

damn.. server is down. Above pics won't appear until it's back up.

Here's the measurements: in millimeters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!












[Modified by Twin_Turbo, 2:17 PM 5/9/2003]

 

Read norval's post about the coleman extended bushings. They are not a direct fit. The ownder of the race car modded his VB&P arms and since it doesn't really fit too well had to weld the ball joint on the outside. Everytime he removes it he needs to grind away the weld. Not a real problem but I want it done some better way that that. If the aftermarket upper arms fit then you could use those ball joints since the arms are available drilled for the mini ball joint pattern.

For the average person expecting to just bolt the coleman adjustable ball joints in they will not work. I had to fill in all the mounting holes plus part of the hole that the ball joint fits into. after grinding, fitting and drilling the coleman joints are a direct drop in and look stock but it took welding equipment and a little fabrication.

As for trusting welded spindles if down right they will be as strong as one piece units. I would have no problem trusting them. Roger uses them in the 3 cars he races with slicks. At Watkinsin Glen he is really pusing the car around and high speed on the straight aways and never never broke one.
To me welded spindles is the simplist and cheapest solution.

 

If you ask me, the chance of breaking an extended balljoint like the coleman joint is far greater than breaking a properly welded spindle.

 

I agree... If a weld is properly done, its going to hold about the same as the metal around it :leaving:

 

Twin Turbo you have done alot of work for us on this issue. Thank you for the time and effort you have put into this.

This winter I will make the extended spindles but for now I just want to drive and enjoy the car with minimal modifications. I am still interested in playing with bump steer but that is miner.

Thanks

 

Norv, I totally agree, there, THANKS TWIN TURBO....an edjemakation (education) is allways a good thing,..... :D :D :D

GENE

 

Norval... i think you said this coming winter you were gonna chop up the a-arms... can we expect to see an update this coming week?

:jester

 

No ZD75blue I am not going to chop up the A arms. Next winter I want to install the coleman racing tubular A arms. They are only about $40 Am each and I can get them with blank cross shafts so I can drill my own holes for caster. They also come in every 1/4 inch jump between sizes so you can tailer camber with the length. I can borrow a number of different sizes and figure out the proper length but it is around 10 inches.
I will also make the extended spindles as part of the same project but not this summer, next winter. :) :) :)


[Modified by norvalwilhelm, 7:49 PM 5/9/2003]

 

Guys, no problem. It only took me a couple of minutes to measure that stuff. If you need some more measurements, just yell. I'll take them.

 

Did you guys see the thread with the blue TT? Check out the front end on that thing... May be easier then this stuff... prolly not as good of results, but maybe worth entertaining!

ZD

 

definitely not easier. They used the C4 cradle but look at the frame beams, they are angled up ( the C4 is much more level, you can even see how it was supposed run) This was most likely done because the frame beams are higher off the ground in the front on a C4 because the cradle bolts below it. IMO if you don't require a bolt on, the easiest would be to chop up the cradle and the stock frame and somehow weld the thing on it. There IS a problem w/ the C4 suspension though, because the upper control amrs mount on the outside you are limited in the amount of neg. camber that you can set.

 

Hmmm... What kind of suspension is on a formula one car? .... when they're running on the track all i see, are two bars running across to balance the wheel, and two front and back of the wheel...

A tierod control arm?

Ok, i'm going to go sit in the corner now.... :jester

 

Marck there was a group taking a C-3 frame and doing just that. They would cut the C-3 frame and repace the front arms with new ones that would allow a C-4 front frame cradle to bolt to them at the needed height and width.

I don't remember who it was doing it but there was a write up in Vette or Fever a few years ago showing the process taken.

I think I will stick with my VBP mono spring tubular a-arm suspension set up and some style of spindle extender wheather it be the spindle itself, donor, or a set of blocks. JIM

 

It is Paul Newman's Car Creations. They cut the frame where it turns down & out.

Al

 

Formula one cars have A arms also. They are just tubular and extremely long. We have a race team at the university that has to start from scratch each year and build a complete car and body. It take a team a full year to complete but watching them practice in the parking lot is amazing. They are pulling 1.5 g's around the pylons.
They make a jig and make alot of spare A arms. They are about 1/2 inch chrome moly tubing with Heim joints on all ends for adjustment. Even the ball joint is a heim joint with a stud.
If they hit anything the A arm needs to be replaced, that's why they make lots of spares. They also mount the springs and shocks laid down flat and have rods going to the wheels. The sway bars are also high up in the body with about 12 inch links on the end.

 

Hey all, kinda new here. Just been lurking in the background for a while. Anywho, as for the taller spindles... would these things work?
http://www.hotrod.com/howto/50358/index.html

It could be an easier solution for those that don't want to fab anything. Not sure about the strength though. Also, how would lengthening the spindles affect normal tire wear under?

Apple (psst... go TKE)

 

Those work but they are quit pricy and have been around for a long time. They should be strong enough but I never heard of anyone using them.

 

there are a lot more guys doing it besidess mr expensive. P Newman. There's for instance progressive automotive. Don't know their prices though. They do fronts and rears! http://www.progressiveautomotive.com/sweetrear.htm

 

Norval – I would be willing to use my spindles and A-arms as a test. But just like you I don’t want to do anything till next fall. I’m wondering what a change in castor from my 3.95 degree settings to your 5 degrees would feel like. Or for that matter it sounds like your modified A-arm slots could be shimmed all the way out to 6 plus degrees.

I’ve read through all these posts to gain some insight on what your all trying to do. Then I got out an old technical book of how to make your car handle.

When you walk through the pits at an SCCA road racing event and talk to people with similar cars to ours. The front setups are poly everything and big springs. In my case I have never touched my tires to the body. The front tires only have 2 7/8th inches of upward movement before they would hit the wheel well lip. My 17 X9 front wheels have 4.5 inches of back spacing. The tires are 27 inches in diameter. They do not go up into the wheel well.

So with 550-inch pound springs, 1 1/8th sway, and gas shock I have limited my front wheel travel to less than 3 inches of compression out on the road racing tracks. With a static setting of @ .65 degrees of negative camber I can go out and do some hot laps and pull in to test the tire temp across the face of the tire tread. They all read nearly the same. So I would guess that when you limit wheel travel and body roll positive camber changes like you have all talked about are minimal.