More from "the bible"...

Do you really need needle-bearing rockers on a street-driven car? Probably NOT! A lot of money is wasted every year by enthusiasts who whip out their checkbooks before putting their minds in gear. Somehow, the possibility that super-expensive trick parts MAY NOT BE REQUIRED never seems to sink in.
Parts manufacturers and speed-shop owners LOVE their customers for their inability or refusal to think about what is really necessary for street engines.

Your street-driven engine is NOT launched from every stop light with the RPM approaching 8,000 as are engines from pro-stock drag cars.Your street machine is NOT equipped with a dry-sump system that needs reduced circulation to the rockers so that the sump can be kept adequately pumped out in long distance events.

Needle-bearing rockers are often used because they reduce side loading on the valve stems, thereby reducing friction and PERHAPS reducing heat. This is the SINGLE positive reason for using these rockers in anything other than a Can Am car. Needle rockers aggravate STUD BREAKAGE to say nothing of the fact the rockers themselves break. That's another fact that does not get into the ads or data sheets. This makes it ESSENTIAL to use special rocker studs or to shotpeen the radius at the top of the stud base. And, the top of the stud must be machined flat to allow using the setscrew inside of the adjustment nut used for these rockers. The stud-breakage problem could lead you to buy a stud-stabilizing stud girdle. Now you have DOUBLED what you had planned to put into your engine when you started out to add the special rocker arms.

As with stock rcokers, NOT ALL NEEDLE-BEARING TYPES PROVIDE FULL LIFT. The ratio can be less than 1.7:1 and you'll have to install a set in an engine to find out whether the type that you are thinking about buying gives full lift. Further, the longer rocker-adjusting nuts may interfere with the rocker covers so that you may have to use double gaskets or shims (or buy a taller valve covers...MORE expense!).

Something else that I find interesting....

Roller tips on these rockers are so small that no rocking "couple" can be developed between the valve stems and the tips to cause the advertised rolling action to occur.
--------------------------------------------

The above was written specifically for Big block Chevys. Much of it applies to the mouse too.

THINK before you buy!!!!

Dep

 

"I think Dep runs nylon tires, too!!"

Nope...but my '72 does not and WILL NOT see radials of any type mounted on it. Strictly wrinkle wall slicks :)

Dep

 

Dep - That article has some valid points. I have bigger diameter screw in studs and stud girdles to keep it all from breaking. Also taller valve covers. bigger thicker push rods. longer valves so I can run higher lift.

I do have restricted oil to the top end to keep from sucking the pan dry or filling the valve covers with oil and blowing it out the breathers.

To me it's money well spent, but it's not the average person that puts $8000-$10,000 in parts in small block Chevy's. I also am very pleased when I get 20,000 miles out of one of my engines. It's been a long learning curve to get that many.


Hey guy's for front skinnies bias ply race tires are still the best. It's hard to find a skinny high speed radial :smash:

 

:confused: ahhh... page 1 :skep: just as well. bares mentioning again.

 

The late Smokey Yunick, a very gentle soft spoken soul, wrote numerous articles on improving the stock stamped steel rockers. He was an expert getting the most out of these pieces as they were required in the class he was racing in. Once roller rockers were permitted, he never wrote another article on the stamped ones other than to say something gentle like, Throw the sh** in the bucket and use the good parts now that you can!.

If you are worried about stud breakage, use the ARP studs. To quote my favorite Chief Inspector, Problem Solv-Ed. :yesnod:

I think there is some serious stud breakage among many on this thread too. This would also include an AARP stud! And Baby, you know who you are!
:jester

The How TO Hot Rod the BB Chevy was my reading material of choice too for many years. It is great. It is true that the stamped rockers are a wonder of the engin-eering world, but there are many parts that have since come out that are better than 30 years ago. Engine builders using each type will still have some failures. Probably more due to installation problems than part designs. There is no substitute for doing one's homework. Each engine combination will have its own special challenges and needs.

Chuck
:cheers:

If Smokey Yunick had broke his stud, would he than have been Smokey Unick?

:leaving:


[Modified by Chuck Harmon, 9:00 AM 10/29/2003]

 

OK class let's review the orig question: Are roller rockers worth it?

What we have learned:

1. What do they offer: slight performance gain, slightly lower oil temp, damn nice look right before you put the rocker covers on

2. Draw backs: cost of $150 to $300, might have to get new valve covers

Conclusion: if you want em buy em and don't criticize those that don't, if not then don't and don't criticize those who do.

OK :grouphug: , we all drive vettes right? :)

 

This is the coolest thread I've seen in my short time with the forum!!!! ;)

 

Chuck: on the money pal :D

Fevre: Well now you've gone and done it. Just when I was really enjoying teasin the heck out of you, you come up with a dang smart post. Now what am I gonna do???? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Oh yeah...the only small block worth having is the 302 Z-28 engine.

I always got that to fall back on :D :D :D

:party:

Dep



[Modified by Dep, 1:02 PM 10/29/2003]

 

And me I am just arguementative. :jester

 

This is better than the OT debates! :lurk: :D

 

WHICH REMiNDS ME...hehehe....if I remember right the Old Reliable was turning RPMs in the 7000-8000 + range and...hmmm...let me see...

Cylinder heads #3917291, completely stock, no porting allowed!
Stock rocker arms & valve springs

How very interesting. Stock rocker arms and valve springs!
Maybe the people in this thread having so many problems with stock rockers simply don't know WTF they are doing when assembling them???
Nahhh....couldn't be that. ;)
http://www.z28camaro.com/oldrel.html

Dep


[Modified by Dep, 1:22 PM 10/29/2003]

 

Its all about engineering things appropriately.

 

Guru: If that means old technology in old cars and modern technology in new cars...I couldn't agree more! :D :thumbs:

Dep

 

I was thinking more of

If you are building a high reving solid tappet engine I would go with stamped steel

A normal hydraulic tappet stamped

Low lift roller cams stamped

High lift roller cams roller

If you are independantly wealthy and are pissing money away out of your butthole, I would buy a full roller valve train with crower lifters and rockers. Cause I believe their warranty covers damage done to the engine not just the failed part in their lifetime warranty.

 

Guru: Understand and agree 100%.
WOW! Can't imagine what that kind of guarantee would cost!

Dep

 

Well maybe the problem comes from all the so called experts writing articles for hot rod mags in general. Most of them are drag race groupies looking to sell an article to any book that will publish it. They hang around tracks with there credencials and cameras around their necks writing in notebooks and taking pictures of everything they see. A amature buys the book and reads about some trick setup this authority has written about and believes it will help his own piece. Many of the parts are easy bolt ons and not too expensive for the do it yourselfer to install. The part that is missed is all the other internal modifications that he cannot see and be privy too. These we do not tell him or offer any advice on the subject, we just let him write and take pictures and laugh about it after he leaves. So, some innocent Vette owner reads this and believes that a particular improvement on one piece will help his because X uses it. I`m sure that you have seen decals and printed matter all over race cars. 90% that are not used in that car, they are only there because of the contingency fees paid to the winners. Sure, I have used Isky and Howards cams, but you cannot buy the same piece or even a copy. They are given to us and all are basically experimental parts. Oh well, I probably should not even started this because it only gets deeper. :lol: :lol:
Hell, lets break out the beer and just party, too GD cold to go racing. :cheers:

 

It appears I was wrong and its only a 1 year warranty. I could have sworn it was lifetime a little while ago.

Hmmmmmm :confused: :confused: :confused:

 

Wally: Yep...well said! I generally look at the parts being endorsed and then the parts being ADVERTISED in some of these rags, and you find a direct correlation. Money talks and advertising PAYS for those mags to get published as well as the salaries of the people working there. You rarely see a mag saying "use the cheaper stock parts, they're just as good". They'll take full color high definition pics of the parts they are installing and then give them major coverage in a "how to" article. It's a shame the number of guys that get roped in that way :(

Guru: It may have been a lifetime and it just got too expensive to mintain. Heck even Sears only gives a lifetime warranty on Craftsman HAND TOLLS and nothing else. "The times they are a changin" :D

BTW...I just heard Pontiac pulled out of NASCAR!!! Can anyone confirm that??? Not really a big surprise, but it's down to 3 makes now.

Dep


[Modified by Dep, 2:19 PM 10/29/2003]

 

Dep - read your articles fine print. Stock heads/springs/rockers " chevy 291 casting. Those were over the counter GM race heads allowed by Super Stock rules. I just sold a set of 292 which was an even more improved 291 head. Nothing stock about either of them. angle plugs, bigger springs, screw in studs, no provision for exhaust cross over. The biggest stock heads 46X and 186 castings had @ 163 - 165cc intake volume. the 29X were closer to 190 cc and some were neare 200cc with 2.055/1.60 valves

The poor guys running camel hump heads were thinking of things like pinning the rocker studs in to keep them from pulling. No stock out of the box 302 was ever doing 8000 rpm all day at the track. Talk to someone that really owned one not some bench racer BS or some highly modified 302

That would be like calling over the counter Chevy SB2 heads stock or in years past the aluminum 18 and 12 degree heads stock. Just because you could buy them at your dealer.


[Modified by gkull, 2:22 PM 10/29/2003]

 

2 threads about it in OT the other day about pontiac being out of NASCAR


[Modified by Guru_4_hire, 3:21 PM 10/29/2003]