AR 383 Update...
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 17,646
Likes: 189
From: Who says "Nothing is impossible" ? I've been doing nothing for years.
Re: AR 383 Update... (GrandSportC3)
How are they rating their engines if it is the engine itself ( wihich I am assuming Gross HP) you can lose 15- 20 % through accessories and exhaust now you have your flywheel horspower ( Net HP ) drop another 15-20% for drivetrain and you get RWHP so 425 HP - say 35% = 277RWHP :D
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 182,997
Likes: 88
From: Lakeland, FL
Cruise-In IV-V-VI-VII-VIII Veteran
St. Jude Donor '03, '06, '17
Re: AR 383 Update... (MotorHead)
How are they rating their engines if it is the engine itself ( wihich I am assuming Gross HP) you can lose 15- 20 % through accessories and exhaust now you have your flywheel horspower ( Net HP ) drop another 15-20% for drivetrain and you get RWHP so 425 HP - say 35% = 277RWHP :D
Racer
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 296
Likes: 1
From: Sarasota FL
Re: AR 383 Update... (MotorHead)
I guess I should be happy with 280 RWHP from AR's 425hp 350. That is a34% loss of efficiency. The only other mods I can do to get more would be electric fan and electric fuel (also for cooler fuel) ...as far as I know. (since open headders won't work for my life, that is.
I AM happy with the engine. It is fast, it looks good, and it sounds and feels great! ...Oh yeah, and it was relatively cheap. AR racing has always been very helpful for me, too.
I do think I might have gone with the 383 if I did it over.
I AM happy with the engine. It is fast, it looks good, and it sounds and feels great! ...Oh yeah, and it was relatively cheap. AR racing has always been very helpful for me, too.
I do think I might have gone with the 383 if I did it over.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 17,646
Likes: 189
From: Who says "Nothing is impossible" ? I've been doing nothing for years.
Re: AR 383 Update... (Marc80)
I know the ZZ4 is rated at close to flywheel HP(Net HP) ,which makes sense because it is GM, they do use a muffler system of some sort. So 355 HP - %20 drivetrain loss comes to 285RWHP which is in the ballpark of what I have seen personally from ZZ4' ( 260 -280RWHP).
If I was a crate engine builder I would try to get the most HP I could put of the motor meaning open headers no accessories etc. so I could sell the motor easier. Therfore I beleive most of the crate engines are rated at Gross HP.
If this is true then to compare the ZZ4 crate engine to other crate engines you would have to say the ZZ4 is well over 400HP.
If I was a crate engine builder I would try to get the most HP I could put of the motor meaning open headers no accessories etc. so I could sell the motor easier. Therfore I beleive most of the crate engines are rated at Gross HP.
If this is true then to compare the ZZ4 crate engine to other crate engines you would have to say the ZZ4 is well over 400HP.
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 182,997
Likes: 88
From: Lakeland, FL
Cruise-In IV-V-VI-VII-VIII Veteran
St. Jude Donor '03, '06, '17
Re: AR 383 Update... (Marc80)
I guess I should be happy with 280 RWHP from AR's 425hp 350. That is a34% loss of efficiency. The only other mods I can do to get more would be electric fan and electric fuel (also for cooler fuel) ...as far as I know. (since open headders won't work for my life, that is.
I AM happy with the engine. It is fast, it looks good, and it sounds and feels great! ...Oh yeah, and it was relatively cheap. AR racing has always been very helpful for me, too.
I do think I might have gone with the 383 if I did it over.
I AM happy with the engine. It is fast, it looks good, and it sounds and feels great! ...Oh yeah, and it was relatively cheap. AR racing has always been very helpful for me, too.
I do think I might have gone with the 383 if I did it over.
35% loss seems to be within normal range for that transmission.. If you have a manual transmissin - you are losing 10+% too much...
Did you dyno test with open pipes or with mufflers??? Even good Mufflers will cost you 15 - 20 RWHP...
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 182,997
Likes: 88
From: Lakeland, FL
Cruise-In IV-V-VI-VII-VIII Veteran
St. Jude Donor '03, '06, '17
Re: AR 383 Update... (MotorHead)
I know the ZZ4 is rated at close to flywheel HP(Net HP) ,which makes sense because it is GM, they do use a muffler system of some sort. So 355 HP - %20 drivetrain loss comes to 285RWHP which is in the ballpark of what I have seen personally from ZZ4' ( 260 -280RWHP).
If I was a crate engine builder I would try to get the most HP I could put of the motor meaning open headers no accessories etc. so I could sell the motor easier. Therfore I beleive most of the crate engines are rated at Gross HP.
If this is true then to compare the ZZ4 crate engine to other crate engines you would have to say the ZZ4 is well over 400HP.
If I was a crate engine builder I would try to get the most HP I could put of the motor meaning open headers no accessories etc. so I could sell the motor easier. Therfore I beleive most of the crate engines are rated at Gross HP.
If this is true then to compare the ZZ4 crate engine to other crate engines you would have to say the ZZ4 is well over 400HP.
My engine was rated 465 HP and I got 365 RWHP... If the engine would have been rated in gross horsepower - I'd have 15% accessories loss + 15% drivetrain loss.. Therefore - 365 RWHP would mean that the engine has 520 crank horsepower.. which would be 55 HP above the advertised horsepower rating... (520 HP - 30% (156 HP) = 364 RWHP).. I don't think that my engine was 55 HP underrated... I asked Mark (from AR) and he said that they dynoed the mule engine with mufflers (race mufflers) but not with open pipes. I didn't ask about accessories.. but I guess that they also had the accessories on the car... or I really got more horsepower than they advertised :confused: :confused:
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,906
Likes: 0
From: Berlin
Re: AR 383 Update... (GrandSportC3)
I don't think that most engines are rated with gross horsepower... I think that it's industry standard to rate them with the accessories.. but I'm not an expert...
An engine builder could be dishonest, and advertise "net hp," but that's not what you're getting. He probably hooked up some very minimal accessories, and a nearly open exhaust to get a high number. Net hp is (correctly) advertised on new cars, and that's about it.
The 15% rule is really not a rule. Stop making it out to be. Maybe its reasonably reliable for net->wheel hp. I doubt you have any good information saying that there's a 15% loss from accessories - especially since everyone has different accessories, and certainly very different exhaust.
You also have much better results than most people from AR. Maybe other people need to do some tuning or maybe you got lucky?
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 182,997
Likes: 88
From: Lakeland, FL
Cruise-In IV-V-VI-VII-VIII Veteran
St. Jude Donor '03, '06, '17
Re: AR 383 Update... (aharte)
I don't think that most engines are rated with gross horsepower... I think that it's industry standard to rate them with the accessories.. but I'm not an expert...
No. Nearly all crate engines are rated gross hp. An engine alone cannot be rated with net hp because the builder doesn't know what accessories you're putting on, which exact exhaust, intake system, etc. If an engine is rated with net hp, then that number is not useful unless you run the exact same combination that they did. It wouldn't make any sense.
An engine builder could be dishonest, and advertise "net hp," but that's not what you're getting. He probably hooked up some very minimal accessories, and a nearly open exhaust to get a high number. Net hp is (correctly) advertised on new cars, and that's about it.
The 15% rule is really not a rule. Stop making it out to be. Maybe its reasonably reliable for net->wheel hp. I doubt you have any good information saying that there's a 15% loss from accessories - especially since everyone has different accessories, and certainly very different exhaust.
You also have much better results than most people from AR. Maybe other people need to do some tuning or maybe you got lucky?
No. Nearly all crate engines are rated gross hp. An engine alone cannot be rated with net hp because the builder doesn't know what accessories you're putting on, which exact exhaust, intake system, etc. If an engine is rated with net hp, then that number is not useful unless you run the exact same combination that they did. It wouldn't make any sense.
An engine builder could be dishonest, and advertise "net hp," but that's not what you're getting. He probably hooked up some very minimal accessories, and a nearly open exhaust to get a high number. Net hp is (correctly) advertised on new cars, and that's about it.
The 15% rule is really not a rule. Stop making it out to be. Maybe its reasonably reliable for net->wheel hp. I doubt you have any good information saying that there's a 15% loss from accessories - especially since everyone has different accessories, and certainly very different exhaust.
You also have much better results than most people from AR. Maybe other people need to do some tuning or maybe you got lucky?
A mechanical fan will cost you another 10 - 15 RWHP...
I don't run a mechanical fan nor do I run mufflers...
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Race Director
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 16,945
Likes: 9
Re: AR 383 Update... (aharte)
I don't think that most engines are rated with gross horsepower... I think that it's industry standard to rate them with the accessories.. but I'm not an expert...
No. Nearly all crate engines are rated gross hp. An engine alone cannot be rated with net hp because the builder doesn't know what accessories you're putting on, which exact exhaust, intake system, etc. If an engine is rated with net hp, then that number is not useful unless you run the exact same combination that they did. It wouldn't make any sense.
An engine builder could be dishonest, and advertise "net hp," but that's not what you're getting. He probably hooked up some very minimal accessories, and a nearly open exhaust to get a high number. Net hp is (correctly) advertised on new cars, and that's about it.
The 15% rule is really not a rule. Stop making it out to be. Maybe its reasonably reliable for net->wheel hp. I doubt you have any good information saying that there's a 15% loss from accessories - especially since everyone has different accessories, and certainly very different exhaust.
You also have much better results than most people from AR. Maybe other people need to do some tuning or maybe you got lucky?
No. Nearly all crate engines are rated gross hp. An engine alone cannot be rated with net hp because the builder doesn't know what accessories you're putting on, which exact exhaust, intake system, etc. If an engine is rated with net hp, then that number is not useful unless you run the exact same combination that they did. It wouldn't make any sense.
An engine builder could be dishonest, and advertise "net hp," but that's not what you're getting. He probably hooked up some very minimal accessories, and a nearly open exhaust to get a high number. Net hp is (correctly) advertised on new cars, and that's about it.
The 15% rule is really not a rule. Stop making it out to be. Maybe its reasonably reliable for net->wheel hp. I doubt you have any good information saying that there's a 15% loss from accessories - especially since everyone has different accessories, and certainly very different exhaust.
You also have much better results than most people from AR. Maybe other people need to do some tuning or maybe you got lucky?
I see pople messing with loss figures all the time, they are so unexperimental you can mess with them and get the HP figure you want.
Race Director
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 16,945
Likes: 9
Re: AR 383 Update... (cardo0)
yeah yeah, so it ain't a correct english word. You may laugh about it when you can write and speak dutch at the level I speak english okay! :nonod: :sad: :yesnod:
[Modified by Twin_Turbo, 2:04 AM 11/16/2003]
[Modified by Twin_Turbo, 2:04 AM 11/16/2003]
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,162
Likes: 2
From: Beaverton, OR
Re: AR 383 Update... (Twin_Turbo)
Don't worry about your English writing skills, they are better than those of half the native English speakers on this forum. :)
As for loss figures, I didn't mean to start a storm of conversation/arguement... I should have said ~30% probably for *my* setup, but it may be more. My end goal as far as accesseries and other power eaters follows:
1 - Electric fans
2 - Electric fuel pump
3 - Mufflers with electronically actuated cutouts
I'm just trying to decide what size exhaust pipe and which mufflers would be a good compromise when I'm tooling around town and don't want to go deaf. I'm not building a race car, I'm building a car that I can race. From that stand point, I'd love to go to a manual transmission sometime in the future, but just don't have the money to do it now... But I'm digressing:D
As for loss figures, I didn't mean to start a storm of conversation/arguement... I should have said ~30% probably for *my* setup, but it may be more. My end goal as far as accesseries and other power eaters follows:
1 - Electric fans
2 - Electric fuel pump
3 - Mufflers with electronically actuated cutouts
I'm just trying to decide what size exhaust pipe and which mufflers would be a good compromise when I'm tooling around town and don't want to go deaf. I'm not building a race car, I'm building a car that I can race. From that stand point, I'd love to go to a manual transmission sometime in the future, but just don't have the money to do it now... But I'm digressing:D
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 11,322
Likes: 1
From: Living in the Hartland
Re: AR 383 Update... (dath)
Don't worry about your English writing skills, they are better than those of half the native English speakers on this forum. :)
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 182,997
Likes: 88
From: Lakeland, FL
Cruise-In IV-V-VI-VII-VIII Veteran
St. Jude Donor '03, '06, '17
Re: AR 383 Update... (dath)
1 - Electric fans
2 - Electric fuel pump
3 - Mufflers with electronically actuated cutouts
2 - Electric fuel pump
3 - Mufflers with electronically actuated cutouts
Racer
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 326
Likes: 44
From: Newberg,Oregon,U.S.A.
Re: AR 383 Update... (dath)
Hey dath it's been a while and I've been meaning to give you a call but time has been a factor, glad the ball is still rolling let me know if you need help with the install, BTW what are you going to do with your old carb???, I'am looking for a 74 and eariler for the heads I want. :cheers:
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,162
Likes: 2
From: Beaverton, OR
Re: AR 383 Update... (GrandSportC3)
1 - Electric fans
2 - Electric fuel pump
3 - Mufflers with electronically actuated cutouts
That's probably a 30 RWHP gain right there :yesnod: :yesnod: :yesnod:
2 - Electric fuel pump
3 - Mufflers with electronically actuated cutouts
That's probably a 30 RWHP gain right there :yesnod: :yesnod: :yesnod:
Nick: No plans for the my old quadrajet. It is not original, I think it came from a '75 truck if I recall correctly. Lets talk, I may need an air intake fabbed up, the carb is yours (if you want it) if you can help me with an intake when the time comes:)
