front end alignment, camber adjustment- car wandering
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: May 2003
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From: winnipeg MB
front end alignment, camber adjustment- car wandering
My car's been wandering a lot lately (1980), the roads aren't the greatest right now due to frost heaving, but i understand theres a camber adjustment fix that will help. I understand theres a 3.8 degree angle on the front tires and if its adjusted to 6 degrees it will help. anyone second this? or having anything to add?
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Waterloo ontario Canada
Re: front end alignment, camber adjustment- car wandering (bloodvette80)
You are talking about Caster not Camber. Camber is leaning the tires in or out at the top. A 1 degree lean is very noticable.
Anyway Caster's what you are after and with shimming the heck out of the back you still could not get more then 3 degrees.
I overcame this by slotting the upper A arm cross shafts 1/4 inch to allow me to move the upper A arm back 1/4 inch and it gave me 5 degrees positive caster without shimming.
Anyway Caster's what you are after and with shimming the heck out of the back you still could not get more then 3 degrees.
I overcame this by slotting the upper A arm cross shafts 1/4 inch to allow me to move the upper A arm back 1/4 inch and it gave me 5 degrees positive caster without shimming.
Pro
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 672
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From: Quebec
Re: front end alignment, camber adjustment- car wandering (Z-man)
I found out that the caster increase the high speed stability but doesn't correct the wandering. More toe in like 1/8 inch total will decrease it and the most important with a 1980 is tire pressure. With those 255 60 R15 on the front, be sure to run the recommended 26 Psi all around. It really helped when I ran my 15 inches.
Stephan
Stephan
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Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Waterloo ontario Canada
Re: front end alignment, camber adjustment- car wandering (American Boy)
Stock car racers swear any toe in causes darting. MY suspension book warns about toe in. Never let the car toe in. Toe out is better then toe in according to the book.
Toe in was designed for bias tires and POSITIVE CAMBER. It was set at toe in so the force of driving down the road and the tires were pushed out creating zero toe.
When radial tires came along the toe was reduced to 1/2 of what the specs called for.
Now we run NEGATIVE camber putting a whole difference force on the tires.
Are we sure we still want to run toe IN?????
Toe in was designed for bias tires and POSITIVE CAMBER. It was set at toe in so the force of driving down the road and the tires were pushed out creating zero toe.
When radial tires came along the toe was reduced to 1/2 of what the specs called for.
Now we run NEGATIVE camber putting a whole difference force on the tires.
Are we sure we still want to run toe IN?????
Race Director
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 10,643
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From: Foxfield CO 1970 Convertible
Re: front end alignment, camber adjustment- car wandering (norvalwilhelm)
Here's some more info FYI (what the VBP folks recommend - not factory specs obviously). These are from tests and professional drivers. I see they also recommend negative camber. I run the Advanced street settings (on the street) and the car tracks pretty well. I've found that any toe-out results in great handling alright, but the thing is all over the road where there is even the slightest hint of road ruts...and especially if you have wide tires. I also agree with you that, regardless of other settings, running at speed will cause the toe out to increase.
http://www.vbandp.com/instructions/h...ruct/align.htm
http://www.vbandp.com/instructions/h...ruct/align.htm
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 11,872
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From: Waterloo ontario Canada
Re: front end alignment, camber adjustment- car wandering (Z-man)
If you are on a bicycle and the front wheel is welded solid, no turning whatever would you be able to lean into a turn and have the bike go in whatever direction you lean??
You car tire stock is out at the top, positive camber, if the bike turns in the direction that the bike is lean wouldn't the car tire do the same?
Lean the tire in at the top and doesn't it want to steer in?
This is not my idea but one I read about and gives us reason to think?
Who says that our tires with different camber toe in or out under driving conditions. Who measures it at 60 mph?
You car tire stock is out at the top, positive camber, if the bike turns in the direction that the bike is lean wouldn't the car tire do the same?
Lean the tire in at the top and doesn't it want to steer in?
This is not my idea but one I read about and gives us reason to think?
Who says that our tires with different camber toe in or out under driving conditions. Who measures it at 60 mph?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,000
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From: Boulder Creek California
Re: front end alignment, camber adjustment- car wandering (norvalwilhelm)
I can tell you that .5" toe out was a very very bad thing. The insides of my tires wore bald (they were already a little old) within 1500 miles and handling was barely controllable, I had to yank the wheel to get it over the crown in the road and yank it back to keep from shooting off the other side. Now, understand, this is a huge amount of toe out.
I currently have 0 toe, and am happy with it. -.5 camber, 3* caster. Something similar to this should work for you. If the tires are being pushed in at speed (due to the bike-effect mentioned above) you will net a bit of toe in. Whether or not that is good is up for debate I suppose, but you will at least stay very close to zero, which is good for wear.
-Chris
I currently have 0 toe, and am happy with it. -.5 camber, 3* caster. Something similar to this should work for you. If the tires are being pushed in at speed (due to the bike-effect mentioned above) you will net a bit of toe in. Whether or not that is good is up for debate I suppose, but you will at least stay very close to zero, which is good for wear.
-Chris
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Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Waterloo ontario Canada
Re: front end alignment, camber adjustment- car wandering (LiveandLetDrive)
LiveandLetDrive. I am not looking for settings. I do my own alignment and just like to try different things.
We all KNOW that we have to start with toe IN because as we drive down the road the tires try to toe OUT.
We are also setting up the car different then was designed into them 30 years ago.
What if with the new settings like I mentioned with the bike the tires are actually toeing IN and we run into extreme toe IN and also a darting problem.
I ran most of last summer with the tires set at 1/8th toe OUT.
We all KNOW that we have to start with toe IN because as we drive down the road the tires try to toe OUT.
We are also setting up the car different then was designed into them 30 years ago.
What if with the new settings like I mentioned with the bike the tires are actually toeing IN and we run into extreme toe IN and also a darting problem.
I ran most of last summer with the tires set at 1/8th toe OUT.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Waterloo ontario Canada
Re: front end alignment, camber adjustment- car wandering (Z-man)
running at speed will cause the toe out to increase.
How do we know this??? With positive Camber we accepted the toe out with speed theory but we are setting our cars up with Negative Camber???
Here agian this is not my arguement but repeating what I read about camber negative/ positive vs toe in or toe out.
How do we know this??? With positive Camber we accepted the toe out with speed theory but we are setting our cars up with Negative Camber???
Here agian this is not my arguement but repeating what I read about camber negative/ positive vs toe in or toe out.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 10,643
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From: Foxfield CO 1970 Convertible
Re: front end alignment, camber adjustment- car wandering (norvalwilhelm)
More thoughts...
I think there is a tendency to increase toe out at speed regardless of the camber and caster settings. Cars are different than bicycles because the front wheels are on spindles supported only on one side. The force at speed tends to turn the tires out because of this. It's not alot, but 1/100th of an inch of play in the wheel bearing, spindle and ball joint might translate into 1/32 where the rubber meets the road. Bikes and shopping carts have their front axle(s) supported on both ends.
I think there is a tendency to increase toe out at speed regardless of the camber and caster settings. Cars are different than bicycles because the front wheels are on spindles supported only on one side. The force at speed tends to turn the tires out because of this. It's not alot, but 1/100th of an inch of play in the wheel bearing, spindle and ball joint might translate into 1/32 where the rubber meets the road. Bikes and shopping carts have their front axle(s) supported on both ends.
