Jim Meyers Racing
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 17,676
Likes: 201
From: Who says "Nothing is impossible" ? I've been doing nothing for years.
I am looking for the upper and lowers ( tubular ) arms to work with existing stock suspension, can't stand the looks of our ancient A arms 
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,435
Likes: 0
From: largo florida
TT, I got some prices but it is for the kit, not lowers only.
63-82 coil over kit includs, Upper and Lower tube A-Arms, Adjustable coil over shocks $1495.00. Our handeling package includs the above along with a front and rear sway bars with rear adjustable shocks. Rears are not coil overs. $2495.00
I emailed them, took about a week for this responce.
63-82 coil over kit includs, Upper and Lower tube A-Arms, Adjustable coil over shocks $1495.00. Our handeling package includs the above along with a front and rear sway bars with rear adjustable shocks. Rears are not coil overs. $2495.00
I emailed them, took about a week for this responce.
Race Director
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 16,945
Likes: 9
so all that in the pic for 1500$, pretty reasonable considering what some of the other coil over setups cost. I will however build my own, for 1500$ I can build a lot of stuff...I'm cheap.
Last edited by Twin_Turbo; Sep 14, 2004 at 11:52 AM.
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A penny saved is a penny earned.
Race Director
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 16,945
Likes: 9
This kit does not come with brackets for the cross shaft.
To get a smaller scrub radius you need to modify the spindle, as the spindle snout will have to stick out straight, altering arm lengths will influence camber, not the kingpin angle. Moving the upper balljoint inward by welding a new eye on the spindle will alter the scrub radius, but why would you want to do that? It's only a thing to consider when you are running real wide front tires or negative offset wheels with a big spacer (anything that moves the tire centerline outboard)
To get a smaller scrub radius you need to modify the spindle, as the spindle snout will have to stick out straight, altering arm lengths will influence camber, not the kingpin angle. Moving the upper balljoint inward by welding a new eye on the spindle will alter the scrub radius, but why would you want to do that? It's only a thing to consider when you are running real wide front tires or negative offset wheels with a big spacer (anything that moves the tire centerline outboard)
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,435
Likes: 0
From: largo florida
Here is a quote from TT from the "holy cow, the camber stinks" thread. It has some other good info in it. You should read it.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...3&page=1&pp=20
Oh yeah, check the properties of the link by right clicking on it and going to properties, copy the whole address, paste it in your web browser and hit enter
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...3&page=1&pp=20
moving the cross shaft backwards increases the caster setting. Moving the cross shaft down accomplishes the same as making the spindle longer, the camber will gain more aggresively. You can't moce the cross shaft down a whole lot without chopping up the mount though.
Caster is important for stability but also influences how the suspension reacts under bump . See it like this, if you look at the caster you draw a line though both balljoints. Extend the line to floor level, if the wheel center is behind the intersection point the wheel is "dragging" just like a caster on a shopping cart, this gives stability because the wheel drags, in a similar way as it does with the cart casters (that's why these things are probably called casters) It also influences the bump behaviour. If the caster is set so the wheel travels up and BACKWARDS (pos. caster) then when you hit a bump the wheel will bounce up and back, this is in correspondance with the obstruction you are running over. If the wheel moves FORWARD and up then the wheel wants to run into the obstruction since bumping the suspension up will force the wheel forward (this is neg. caster). This negative caster will provide a degree of anti dive but also anti-bump. This will result in a much stiffer ride. Brake leverage will also give anti dive or pro dive, depending on the caster, the setup of the cross shafts and the position of the caliper.
The kingpin angle or kingpin inclination is the angle that the line through upper & lower ball joint makes in relation to the axle pin. If you extend the line through both balljoints it will intersect with floor level. The distance between that and the tire centerline is the srub radius. The less the scrub radius the easier the steering effort, no scrub radius gives very little steering feedback and scrub radius is needed for straight line stability, just like toe is. Too much scrub radius will make it hard to turn corners. You can actually see it, with the car standing still turn the wheel and notice how the tire makes an arch that is not perfect with the steering axis (the axis through upper & lower ball joint) and it actually tries to push the car from side to side.
Here's a pic, D = scrub radius
http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_s...ng/kingpin.jpg
Caster is important for stability but also influences how the suspension reacts under bump . See it like this, if you look at the caster you draw a line though both balljoints. Extend the line to floor level, if the wheel center is behind the intersection point the wheel is "dragging" just like a caster on a shopping cart, this gives stability because the wheel drags, in a similar way as it does with the cart casters (that's why these things are probably called casters) It also influences the bump behaviour. If the caster is set so the wheel travels up and BACKWARDS (pos. caster) then when you hit a bump the wheel will bounce up and back, this is in correspondance with the obstruction you are running over. If the wheel moves FORWARD and up then the wheel wants to run into the obstruction since bumping the suspension up will force the wheel forward (this is neg. caster). This negative caster will provide a degree of anti dive but also anti-bump. This will result in a much stiffer ride. Brake leverage will also give anti dive or pro dive, depending on the caster, the setup of the cross shafts and the position of the caliper.
The kingpin angle or kingpin inclination is the angle that the line through upper & lower ball joint makes in relation to the axle pin. If you extend the line through both balljoints it will intersect with floor level. The distance between that and the tire centerline is the srub radius. The less the scrub radius the easier the steering effort, no scrub radius gives very little steering feedback and scrub radius is needed for straight line stability, just like toe is. Too much scrub radius will make it hard to turn corners. You can actually see it, with the car standing still turn the wheel and notice how the tire makes an arch that is not perfect with the steering axis (the axis through upper & lower ball joint) and it actually tries to push the car from side to side.
Here's a pic, D = scrub radius
http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_s...ng/kingpin.jpg
Last edited by lostpatrolman; Sep 15, 2004 at 06:31 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 16,945
Likes: 9
I already answered that, no it does nothing for scrub radius. The scrub radius depends on tire width, wheel offset, tiire diameter and the spindle design itself. When keeping the tires & wheels the same, the only way to alter the scrub radius is to either use spacers to increase or alter the kinpin angle to decrease. Are you running wide neg offset wheels or positive offset wheels w/ a big spacer????
Instructor
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
From: atlanta GA
ok, i'm not explaining myself well...
our cars run negative offset wheels stock. that kit above moves the cross shaft location of the lower a arm out (i have no idea, so lets say...) 1 inch. if the upper a arm is moved out (1 inch) as well then that imaginary line running through the balljoints is moved outboard 1 inch, thereby moving closer to the centerline of the wheel (provided the wheel offset is adjusted by an inch). and because we have little to no kingpin inclination stock, massage the upper a arm (either by location or length) to gain a some sort of inclination (i understand there will be more neg camber at rest that way, but maybe there is a reasonable compromise). of course this does nothing for you, with your wheel/tire selection, but could this do anything for those of us with narra wheels?
our cars run negative offset wheels stock. that kit above moves the cross shaft location of the lower a arm out (i have no idea, so lets say...) 1 inch. if the upper a arm is moved out (1 inch) as well then that imaginary line running through the balljoints is moved outboard 1 inch, thereby moving closer to the centerline of the wheel (provided the wheel offset is adjusted by an inch). and because we have little to no kingpin inclination stock, massage the upper a arm (either by location or length) to gain a some sort of inclination (i understand there will be more neg camber at rest that way, but maybe there is a reasonable compromise). of course this does nothing for you, with your wheel/tire selection, but could this do anything for those of us with narra wheels?
Instructor
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
From: atlanta GA
ok, i'm not explaining myself well...
our cars run negative offset wheels stock (i know you know this, just stating a premise). that kit above moves the cross shaft location of the lower a arm out (i have no idea, so lets say...) 1 inch. if the upper a arm is moved out (1 inch) as well then that imaginary line running through the balljoints is moved outboard 1 inch, thereby moving closer to the centerline of the wheel (provided the wheel offset is adjusted by an inch). and because we have little to no kingpin inclination stock, massage the upper a arm (either by location or length) to gain some sort of inclination (i understand there will be more neg camber at rest that way, but maybe there is a reasonable compromise). of course this does nothing for you, with your wheel/tire selection, but could this do anything for those of us with narra wheels?
our cars run negative offset wheels stock (i know you know this, just stating a premise). that kit above moves the cross shaft location of the lower a arm out (i have no idea, so lets say...) 1 inch. if the upper a arm is moved out (1 inch) as well then that imaginary line running through the balljoints is moved outboard 1 inch, thereby moving closer to the centerline of the wheel (provided the wheel offset is adjusted by an inch). and because we have little to no kingpin inclination stock, massage the upper a arm (either by location or length) to gain some sort of inclination (i understand there will be more neg camber at rest that way, but maybe there is a reasonable compromise). of course this does nothing for you, with your wheel/tire selection, but could this do anything for those of us with narra wheels?
Race Director
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 16,945
Likes: 9
this kit does not move anything, I was mistaking, apparently the pics on the site are mixed up. I don't know what the kit with the brackets is for but the large pic posted above is the C3 kit.
Even IF it would move the cross shaft, it does nothing for the scrub radius. the spindle snout ia always sticking out horizontal (or close to -> the camber curve). If you then combine it with the upper arm the only thing that will change is the camber & geometry, not the kingpin angle. The control arm geometry hsa nothing to do with that, the only thing that changes the kingpin angle is changing the ball joint holes on the kingpin itself.
What you are saying is, move the lower arm outboard to get more angle on the spindle (keeping the stock upper arm), what youa re doing is getting a huge engative static camber, the scrub radius still is unchanged because the wheel centerline and the kingpin steering axis have not moved.
What are narra wheels? I actually could use some smaller scrub radius (more kingpin inclination) because my front wheels are 11" wide and are real deep neg. offset.
I finally got my control arms...here's some nice adjustability
Even IF it would move the cross shaft, it does nothing for the scrub radius. the spindle snout ia always sticking out horizontal (or close to -> the camber curve). If you then combine it with the upper arm the only thing that will change is the camber & geometry, not the kingpin angle. The control arm geometry hsa nothing to do with that, the only thing that changes the kingpin angle is changing the ball joint holes on the kingpin itself.
What you are saying is, move the lower arm outboard to get more angle on the spindle (keeping the stock upper arm), what youa re doing is getting a huge engative static camber, the scrub radius still is unchanged because the wheel centerline and the kingpin steering axis have not moved.
What are narra wheels? I actually could use some smaller scrub radius (more kingpin inclination) because my front wheels are 11" wide and are real deep neg. offset.
I finally got my control arms...here's some nice adjustability
Race Director
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 16,945
Likes: 9
I'm not building a daily driver, they need checking often, lubrication also. I did modify the ball joint to hold the 2 boots so the monoball isn't exposed to the elements & dirt. These arems are really strong, if they survive the abuse in a race car they will probably survive my driving as well. The stock arms'aren't exactly strong either, once you've installed a set of bushings with a drill press you will quickly realize you need to support them or you will bend them easily.
Instructor
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
From: atlanta GA
"What you are saying is, move the lower arm outboard to get more angle on the spindle (keeping the stock upper arm), what youa re doing is getting a huge engative static camber, the scrub radius still is unchanged because the wheel centerline and the kingpin steering axis have not moved."
no, i'm talking about moving both a arms out and moving closer to positive offset with non stock wheels.
"narra wheels" = narrow wheels, at least compared to your 11in monsters.
i like the polepositions
no, i'm talking about moving both a arms out and moving closer to positive offset with non stock wheels.
"narra wheels" = narrow wheels, at least compared to your 11in monsters.
i like the polepositions