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Old Nov 5, 2004 | 08:04 AM
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Default Question about octane ratings.

Is there a reason to buy higher octane gas other than having a high compression ratio. I have a 71 L48 with 8.5:1 compression and I usually get the highest octane. Would it be ok for me to get 87 or something like that or is there other differences besides spontanious combustion point?
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Old Nov 5, 2004 | 08:56 AM
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my gas mileage went down and the car ran like crap on regular....
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Old Nov 5, 2004 | 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by FormerPacifist
Is there a reason to buy higher octane gas other than having a high compression ratio. I have a 71 L48 with 8.5:1 compression and I usually get the highest octane. Would it be ok for me to get 87 or something like that or is there other differences besides spontanious combustion point?
There is no reason whatsoever that your car wouldnt operate just as well on regular as Premium. If it operates and does not spark knock excessively it will make absolutely no difference. The only difference is that premium actually burns slower to control knock. An 8.5 ratio is designed to run on regular.
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Old Nov 5, 2004 | 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by wombvette
There is no reason whatsoever that your car wouldnt operate just as well on regular as Premium. If it operates and does not spark knock excessively it will make absolutely no difference. The only difference is that premium actually burns slower to control knock. An 8.5 ratio is designed to run on regular.
Not true, ideally you want to run the fuel that burns as fast possible without detonating under your engine conditions. An engine designed and tuned for 87 will suffer a power loss running 91+
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Old Nov 5, 2004 | 11:23 AM
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Best results are running the lowest octane you can without getting pre-detonation. With your compression ratio you can run on regular. If it knocks, then step up one grade untill it stops.
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Old Nov 5, 2004 | 11:48 AM
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Best results are running the lowest octane you can without getting pre-detonation.
ding... ding... ding; we have a winner !
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Old Nov 5, 2004 | 12:16 PM
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With 8.5:1 compression, your car can practicaly run on water!
Don't waist you money on anything less that the lowest octane you can find! LOL
And don't listen to the gasonline companies adds. If you want additives to clean your engine, buy it at the auto parts store in a bottle.
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Old Nov 5, 2004 | 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Mercury
ding... ding... ding; we have a winner !


Octane is just an anti-knock index. if it doen't knock with 87, it won't knock with 89, 93, 94, 112, etc....

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Old Nov 5, 2004 | 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by wcsinx
An engine designed and tuned for 87 will suffer a power loss running 91+
um.... this goes against everything I have ever read about octane.
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Old Nov 5, 2004 | 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by flood
um.... this goes against everything I have ever read about octane.
It goes against nothing I've ever read or personally witnessed about octane.

http://www.factorypro.com/tech/fuel_..._vs_power.html

http://www.bajajusa.com/Who%20Needs%...ane%20Fuel.htm

But there is indeed a lot of oil propaganda out there that would like you to believe that a higher octane is always better.
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Old Nov 5, 2004 | 01:13 PM
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Gas with lowest octane that doesn't knock with a good detergent additive works for me. I prefer Chevron.

My reading leads me to believe that higher octane affects the ignition point, not the burn rate. In other words, after ignition 93 octane burns just as fast as 87 octane.
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Old Nov 5, 2004 | 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by flynhi
My reading leads me to believe that higher octane affects the ignition point, not the burn rate. In other words, after ignition 93 octane burns just as fast as 87 octane.
I don't think that's true. (but I know there are different camps of thought on this) I mean the reason the octane is higher is because the fuel is formulated to burn slower.

edited to add: BUT when you think about it, a higher octane fuel would (in theory) put to use in a higher compression engine. Hence the higher pressure in turn would cause the fuel to burn faster relatively speaking.

Last edited by wcsinx; Nov 5, 2004 at 02:30 PM.
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Old Nov 5, 2004 | 02:31 PM
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i thought the octane wouldn't make a difference either so i figured the owners manual was wrong when it specified the higher octane for my 77 L48 dog.....so after using the higher octane i simply switched to sunoco regular......my gas mileage went down considerably and the car ran like crap.....i did this for several tank fulls tried adjusting everything for the lower grade fuel and then said screw this and set everthing back like it was and went back to the 93 octane and it ran fine and gas mileage came back up to a whopping 14.5.... this is a true story take it as you may.....

Last edited by bobs77vet; Nov 5, 2004 at 02:34 PM.
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Old Nov 5, 2004 | 02:36 PM
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Wrap your brain around this:
The octane rating of gasoline tells you how much the fuel can be compressed before it spontaneously ignites. When gas ignites by compression rather than because of the spark from the spark plug, it causes knocking in the engine. Knocking can damage an engine, so it is not something you want to have happening. Lower-octane gas (like "regular" 87-octane gasoline) can handle the least amount of compression before igniting.

The compression ratio of your engine determines the octane rating of the gas you must use in the car. One way to increase the horsepower of an engine of a given displacement is to increase its compression ratio. So a "high-performance engine" has a higher compression ratio and requires higher-octane fuel. The advantage of a high compression ratio is that it gives your engine a higher horsepower rating for a given engine weight -- that is what makes the engine "high performance." The disadvantage is that the gasoline for your engine costs more.

The name "octane" comes from the following fact: When you take crude oil and "crack" it in a refinery, you end up getting hydrocarbon chains of different lengths. These different chain lengths can then be separated from each other and blended to form different fuels. For example, you may have heard of methane, propane and butane. All three of them are hydrocarbons. Methane has just a single carbon atom. Propane has three carbon atoms chained together. Butane has four carbon atoms chained together. Pentane has five, hexane has six, heptane has seven and octane has eight carbons chained together.

It turns out that heptane handles compression very poorly. Compress it just a little and it ignites spontaneously. Octane handles compression very well -- you can compress it a lot and nothing happens. Eighty-seven-octane gasoline is gasoline that contains 87-percent octane and 13-percent heptane (or some other combination of fuels that has the same performance of the 87/13 combination of octane/heptane). It spontaneously ignites at a given compression level, and can only be used in engines that do not exceed that compression ratio.

During WWI, it was discovered that you can add a chemical called tetraethyl lead to gasoline and significantly improve its octane rating. Cheaper grades of gasoline could be made usable by adding this chemical. This led to the widespread use of "ethyl" or "leaded" gasoline. Unfortunately, the side effects of adding lead to gasoline are:

Lead clogs a catalytic converter and renders it inoperable within minutes.
The Earth became covered in a thin layer of lead, and lead is toxic to many living things (including humans).
When lead was banned, gasoline got more expensive because refineries could not boost the octane ratings of cheaper grades any more. Airplanes are still allowed to use leaded gasoline, and octane ratings of 115 are commonly used in super-high-performance piston airplane engines (jet engines burn kerosene, by the way).
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Old Nov 5, 2004 | 02:42 PM
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As far as I've been told, you can increase/decrease your timing (to a point) to take advantage of higher/lower (respectively) octane fuels. If an engine at a constant compression and timing gets a shot of higher octane fuel, it will need a hotter spark to ignite the mixture since it doesn't have enough compression to raise the flash point to the same level as the lower octane fuel. If the ignition can't provide the needed spark, a misfire occurs and economy and power suffers. Conversely, a higher octane fuel at a given compression will need less spark heat to initiate combustion...in some case no spark at all...which would be knock. Changing the timing alters the effective compression at the point of ignition.

Last edited by CGGorman; Nov 5, 2004 at 03:12 PM.
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Old Nov 5, 2004 | 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by bobs77vet
i thought the octane wouldn't make a difference either so i figured the owners manual was wrong when it specified the higher octane for my 77 L48 dog.....so after using the higher octane i simply switched to sunoco regular......my gas mileage went down considerably and the car ran like crap.....i did this for several tank fulls tried adjusting everything for the lower grade fuel and then said screw this and set everthing back like it was and went back to the 93 octane and it ran fine and gas mileage came back up to a whopping 14.5.... this is a true story take it as you may.....
Have you had your heads off lately? It's possible that you've got a lot of carbon buildup on your piston tops which can raise your effective compression ratio. I've seen it happen many times ... even late model cars. Try running some Seafoam or GM top end engine cleaner through her. Maybe you'll have better luck.
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Old Nov 5, 2004 | 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by CGGorman
As far as I've been told, you can increase/decrease your timing (to a point) to take advantage of higher/lower (respectively) octane fuels. If an engine at a constant compression and timing gets a shot of higher octane fuel, it will need a hotter spark to ignite the mixture since it doesn't have enough compression to raise the flash point to the same level as the lower octane fuel. If the ignition can't provide the needed spark, a misfire occurs and economy and power suffers. Conversely, a higher octane fuel at a given compression will need less spark heat to initiate combustion...in some case no spark at all...which would be knock. Changing the timing alters the effective compression at the point of ignition.
Correct, except reverse the words "higher" and "lower" in the last sentence of your post. Higher = slower burn (more compression potential)
Lower = faster burn (less compression potential)
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Old Nov 5, 2004 | 03:11 PM
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Oops. Good catch. That's what I meant.
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Old Nov 5, 2004 | 03:19 PM
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No, I said what I meant.

I'll use my Lincoln as an example because the FoMoCo engineer who was discussing this with me was citing examples specific to that car. I don't see why it would matter, though. Combustion is combustion...

My Lincoln is 10.5:1 and requires 91 octane to prevent knock and run at full potential/efficiency. He said you could "get by" on 89 and the computer would pull timing (retard) to compensate for the earlier ignition point of the lower octane fuel. He also said that if I put in 94, the computer could advance the timing to take advange of the higher octane rating. This would give more power. All examples are on the same engine of the same compression.

Now, I don't have a clue about how fast the wave front travels between octane ratings...

I run 94 in the Linc, BTW.
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Old Nov 5, 2004 | 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by CGGorman
No, I said what I meant.
As far as I've been told, you can increase/decrease your timing (to a point) to take advantage of higher/lower (respectively) octane fuels. If an engine at a constant compression and timing gets a shot of higher octane fuel, it will need a hotter spark to ignite the mixture since it doesn't have enough compression to raise the flash point to the same level as the lower octane fuel. If the ignition can't provide the needed spark, a misfire occurs and economy and power suffers. Conversely, a higher octane fuel at a given compression will need less spark heat to initiate combustion...in some case no spark at all...which would be knock. Changing the timing alters the effective compression at the point of ignition.

Last edited by wcsinx; Nov 5, 2004 at 03:52 PM.
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