Does using anti-seize change torque specs?
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,706
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From: Everett WA
C4 of Year Finalist (appearance mods) 2019
Does using anti-seize change torque specs?
I need to replace most of the driver's side rear suspension components on my 95 A4 including the half-shaft & u-joints, the upper & lower control rods, the front control rod bracket that bolts into the frame, the left side spindle rod, etc.
I've got the car up on heavy duty jackstands, have managed to take everything apart and now have the replacement parts but before I start puting things back together I have several basic questions:
1) Should I use anti-seize on the any of the bolts such as the u-joint shaft retainer bolts and the three control rod bracket bolts and the spindle rod bracket bolts?
2) If I do this, does the use of anti-seize increase the FSM torque specs?
3)When reassembling the half shaft and the splined spindle and sliding it through the wheel bearing is there any special grease that should be used on the splines?
Thanks in advance for your advice and opinions
I've got the car up on heavy duty jackstands, have managed to take everything apart and now have the replacement parts but before I start puting things back together I have several basic questions:
1) Should I use anti-seize on the any of the bolts such as the u-joint shaft retainer bolts and the three control rod bracket bolts and the spindle rod bracket bolts?
2) If I do this, does the use of anti-seize increase the FSM torque specs?
3)When reassembling the half shaft and the splined spindle and sliding it through the wheel bearing is there any special grease that should be used on the splines?
Thanks in advance for your advice and opinions
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,039
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From: CA
Where you described using it, I would think it would be a good idea,and it should not affect your torque specs.There are some places where I would not use it.I've never used it on spark plugs.Just a light coat of oil,but that's just me.Also,I've never used it on head bolts,again,a light coat of oil.I use it on all exhaust parts,manifold,clamps,everything that's gonna get really hot.
Pro
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 638
Likes: 1
From: Robesonia Pa
I always heard thata lubricated thread would require less torque than a dry thread. I did a google search and found this.
>You can generally use anti-seize on a bolt as you see fit by applying a
>simple rule of thumb: With anti-seize, the torque needed to achieve the
>same clamping force is 2/3 to 3/4 that of the dry bolt. A 100 ft-lb torque
>specification becomes 70 ft-lbs with anti-seize. I would avoid coating the
>head seating area of a fastener with lubricating compounds. If you really
>slather the whole works, you could double the design preload or more.
>
>You can generally use anti-seize on a bolt as you see fit by applying a
>simple rule of thumb: With anti-seize, the torque needed to achieve the
>same clamping force is 2/3 to 3/4 that of the dry bolt. A 100 ft-lb torque
>specification becomes 70 ft-lbs with anti-seize. I would avoid coating the
>head seating area of a fastener with lubricating compounds. If you really
>slather the whole works, you could double the design preload or more.
>
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 40,156
Likes: 45
From: San Pedro CA
I always heard thata lubricated thread would require less torque than a dry thread. I did a google search and found this.
>You can generally use anti-seize on a bolt as you see fit by applying a
>simple rule of thumb: With anti-seize, the torque needed to achieve the
>same clamping force is 2/3 to 3/4 that of the dry bolt. A 100 ft-lb torque
>specification becomes 70 ft-lbs with anti-seize. I would avoid coating the
>head seating area of a fastener with lubricating compounds. If you really
>slather the whole works, you could double the design preload or more.
>
>You can generally use anti-seize on a bolt as you see fit by applying a
>simple rule of thumb: With anti-seize, the torque needed to achieve the
>same clamping force is 2/3 to 3/4 that of the dry bolt. A 100 ft-lb torque
>specification becomes 70 ft-lbs with anti-seize. I would avoid coating the
>head seating area of a fastener with lubricating compounds. If you really
>slather the whole works, you could double the design preload or more.
>
Race Director
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 14,924
Likes: 9
From: Merritt Ils Fl
Don't understand your logic. What gets hotter than a sparkplug? I suggest there is universal agreement that anti seize on a steel plug in an aluminum head is essential.
Instructor
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
From: st. Louis MO
re
I use anti-sieze or a similar graphite compound on plugs. the extreme heat and dissimilar metals (damn I cant believe in used that word in proper context) IE steel and aluminum can make for a bad situation. My basic thought is to use it on bolts that I probably will need to extract in the future or a spark plug type situation. One large suspension nut/bolts I reassemble dry unless there is an overriding circumstance. The biggest technique for this stuff though, and no one can't disagree is to use it sparingly. A dab will go a mile. Once it does its a PITA to clean up or remove.
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,039
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From: CA
Well,first off I've got iron heads.Actually a sparkplug runs way cooler than say the exhaust manifold because the heat from the plug is dissipated to the head.Lastly,most sparkplug manufacters do not recommend using any type of compound on the threads.
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2004
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From: Assault is a behavior, not a device! Cypress TX
St. Jude Donor '11
Unless there are specific instructions stating "lubricated" values...always assume that the spec is dry. I have seen torque charts giving a size bolt listed as "dry" and "lubricated" and the spec changes considerably for each.
Team Owner
Joined: May 2000
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From: Plantation Florida USAF(Retired) 1966-1990
U.S. Air Force
St. Jude Donor '05 thru '26
NCM Sinkhole Donor
I Use A Anti-seize That We Used On Jet Engines, It's Made For Heat, And I Torque All The Parts With Anti-seize. I Figure It's Not Going To Hurt.
Pro
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 619
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From: Reno Nv
I never use antisieze on any suspension bolts, I want to use the correct torque value on them.
Are you intending to take the suspension apart frequently?
If you really want to learn, get the ARP catalog.
Will antisieze change the torque requirement? Yes, to the point that torquing the bolt to the dry spec may puy too much load on the bolt inviting a failure.
APR says that lubricating a bolt will reduce the torque required by 20 to 30%.
They go even farther stating that there's a difference depending on what the lube is. Example: a 3/8-24 bolt with w30 oil needs 50 ft.lbs. while the same bolt with ARP moly lube needs 39 ft.lb. There's no spec for antisieze.
Your best bet is to leave them dry.
Are you intending to take the suspension apart frequently?
If you really want to learn, get the ARP catalog.
Will antisieze change the torque requirement? Yes, to the point that torquing the bolt to the dry spec may puy too much load on the bolt inviting a failure.
APR says that lubricating a bolt will reduce the torque required by 20 to 30%.
They go even farther stating that there's a difference depending on what the lube is. Example: a 3/8-24 bolt with w30 oil needs 50 ft.lbs. while the same bolt with ARP moly lube needs 39 ft.lb. There's no spec for antisieze.
Your best bet is to leave them dry.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,564
Likes: 6
From: Woodstock Georgia
I never use antisieze on any suspension bolts, I want to use the correct torque value on them.
Are you intending to take the suspension apart frequently?
If you really want to learn, get the ARP catalog.
Will antisieze change the torque requirement? Yes, to the point that torquing the bolt to the dry spec may puy too much load on the bolt inviting a failure.
APR says that lubricating a bolt will reduce the torque required by 20 to 30%.
They go even farther stating that there's a difference depending on what the lube is. Example: a 3/8-24 bolt with w30 oil needs 50 ft.lbs. while the same bolt with ARP moly lube needs 39 ft.lb. There's no spec for antisieze.
Your best bet is to leave them dry.
Are you intending to take the suspension apart frequently?
If you really want to learn, get the ARP catalog.
Will antisieze change the torque requirement? Yes, to the point that torquing the bolt to the dry spec may puy too much load on the bolt inviting a failure.
APR says that lubricating a bolt will reduce the torque required by 20 to 30%.
They go even farther stating that there's a difference depending on what the lube is. Example: a 3/8-24 bolt with w30 oil needs 50 ft.lbs. while the same bolt with ARP moly lube needs 39 ft.lb. There's no spec for antisieze.
Your best bet is to leave them dry.
Absopositively!!! 
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,356
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From: No HOA, New Hampshire
Cruise-In X Veteran
St. Jude Donor '09
I like the idea of anti-seize on MOST assemblies, but if the torque spec's are specified, than they are for clean, dry threads. IMO Anti-seize should be used for normally disassembled, wet or high temp applications. Head, intake bolts, no, exaust, water pump, fan, radiator most other assemblies should get a drop. 
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,039
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From: CA
You know,I think you guys are taking this torque thing way to seriously.These things arn't made by Swiss watch makers.There are so many variables.Are you using a torque wrench that is the most accurate you can buy? Do you have it calibrated at least once a year? more if you use it often.There are plus and minuses built into everthing.If you put an extention on it,that changes things.The same ,let's say,a 1/4 buy 1" grade 8 bolt,could snap like a petzel at a given torque depending on it's manufacture.What about the way the threads are cut?Is there a gasket,and how much crush is there built into the gasket?Are you dealing with what type of metal?Let's say the pan bolts on your auto tranny, steel bolts, aluminum housing .Are you using a cork gasket,or RTV?You can see where I'm going ,common sense prevails.Believe it or not,your not working on the space shuttle here.I use never-seeze on my lug nuts,I don't slather it on,just a light coat.Are you suppose to,will it change the torque specs? Maybe a little.
So what?I'm not using a 3/4" air wrench to put my wheels on like 100% of all tire shops do.Next time you get your tires changed,ask them to make sure the guy uses a torque wrench on the lug nuts
Sure he will.
So what?I'm not using a 3/4" air wrench to put my wheels on like 100% of all tire shops do.Next time you get your tires changed,ask them to make sure the guy uses a torque wrench on the lug nuts
Sure he will.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,954
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From: Obama=death for America
I've always used anti-seize on my plugs and when they are removed, they come out like butter. Have you ever broken off a plug while attempting to remove it? It can be very time consuming, if not extremely vexing. I do not speak from experience, but only from what I have been told. A car could go 10 years (or more) before a plug change is due if it is driven infrequently. Without having put anti-seize on the plugs, removing them could be nothing short of a real bitch. There's no harm with putting it on the threads. Just be very careful not to get it on the tip.
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 18,726
Likes: 710
From: Bergen County, NJ
Anti-sieze on spark plugs, plenum bolts that screw into aluminum, and anything that gets hot, like O2 sensors and exhaust system bolts.
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,039
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From: CA
I've always used anti-seize on my plugs and when they are removed, they come out like butter. Have you ever broken off a plug while attempting to remove it? It can be very time consuming, if not extremely vexing. I do not speak from experience, but only from what I have been told. A car could go 10 years (or more) before a plug change is due if it is driven infrequently. Without having put anti-seize on the plugs, removing them could be nothing short of a real bitch. There's no harm with putting it on the threads. Just be very careful not to get it on the tip.
Use it if want to,we're not talking life or death here.I've just never found it necessary,my call.
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: Bergen County, NJ
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,039
Likes: 0
From: CA
You can do what you want,but nowhere in any service manual I've ever had, does it say to coat your sparkplug threads with anti-sieze.O2 sensors already come with a coating,but they get a hell of alot hotter than a sparkplug.Why don't sparkplugs come with it?I do agree with using it on exhaust system bolts.