hydrogen fuel cell
Thread Starter
Advanced
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
hydrogen fuel cell
Has anyone put an onboard hydrogen fuel cell in their car to improved DD mileage?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Slc1eTEkRk
http://waterpoweredcar.com/hydrobooster.html
I personally know somwone that put one on an older accord and it increased mileage ~30% with no O2 modifications.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Slc1eTEkRk
http://waterpoweredcar.com/hydrobooster.html
I personally know somwone that put one on an older accord and it increased mileage ~30% with no O2 modifications.
Thread Starter
Advanced
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Please do not reply if you have no experience and only baseless opinion. I know it increases mileage and that is not in question. I would like an intelligent conversation with folks that have done it on a Vette and specifically a 1996 LT1. If nobody has done it, then we should start a group that does so we can share experiences.
Racer
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 283
Likes: 0
From: Pace Florida
Baseless? Well tell me this if it gives 30 percent improvement why would it not be on every auto parts shelf?
Simply Amazing! (The Promises, Not the Gas Savings)
By TIM MORAN
Published: August 6, 2006
THE federal Environmental Protection Agency maintains a full laboratory where it
will gladly test a miraculous fuel-saving device for $30,000. But so far, the
biggest customer of the lab has been the Federal Trade Commission, which uses it
to debunk false advertising claims.
The latest products have received a lift from the Internet and television
infomercials. But while the inventiveness of the marketing has improved, the
success of the devices has not.
“We tested about 100 products, a little more than a hundred, and we can boil
them down to saying that they don’t work,” John Millett, an E.P.A. spokesman,
said.
The F.T.C. lists the results of its tests at the E.P.A. lab on its consumer
protection Web site, www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/gasave.pdf. If the
F.T.C. decides a product is falsely advertised it can take action against the
company selling it.
The E.P.A. reviews the chemicals used in gasoline additives, to ensure that what
comes out of the tailpipe is no more harmful than emissions from regular fuel.
It then issues a registration letter.
This letter does not constitute approval or endorsement, but marketers often use
it to claim E.P.A. “certification.”
Some fuel or oil additives can be a problem for engines and fuel systems.
Additives displace protective chemicals in gasoline and engine oil; some may
corrode fuel pumps or gas tanks, or make flexible fuel hoses and fittings
brittle. Instead of enhancing engine life and economy, users might shorten their
car’s life.
A senior editor at Popular Mechanics magazine, Mike Allen, found results similar
to those obtained by the E.P.A. when he took a crateful of fuel-saving
contraptions to a Texas testing lab to check their effectiveness. “None of them
improved fuel economy, several of them increased fuel consumption and most of
them cost horsepower,” Mr. Allen said in an interview.
To test the gizmos, Mr. Allen used a pair of chassis dynamometers made available
by the Universal Technical Institute, a Houston vocational school. A dynamometer
is a machine that measures the power output of a running vehicle on rollers to
allow its wheels to spin as though they were rolling along pavement.
When fuel consumption was carefully measured, first without and then with the
so-called “enhancers” — everything from the Fuel Atomizer 2000, a gadget that
took fuel through a big loop of copper tubing to vaporize it and pump it back
into the engine, to the Electronic Engine Ionizer, a device that is supposed to
feed energy back and forth to one cylinder or another through clip-on wires.
Some gadgets were hard to install; others were hazardous. “This device had
something they called ‘capacitor blocks,’ ” Mr. Allen said of the Electronic
Engine Ionizer. “They melted and dripped onto the adjustment bolt and caught
fire.”
Another device, the AquaTune, cost $399 and resulted in 20 less horsepower and a
20 percent drop in mileage.
Mr. Allen reported on his findings in the magazine’s September 2005 issue. He
recalled recently that after a week of testing he had gained respect not for the
technology involved, but for the persuasive skills of promoters.
He pointed out that any carmaker that could honestly promise economy gains of
300 percent, 30 percent or even 3 percent would be doing that rather than
offering cash incentives to sell vehicles in a brutally competitive global
market.
Auto companies employ some of the world’s top engineers, and they are desperate
for an edge in the economy sweepstakes. “The possibility that some guy who’s
tinkering in his back yard is going to come up with it is really remote,” Mr.
Allen said.
Why do people who have spent tens of thousands of dollars on a well-engineered
car believe that the $100 Fuel Genie, the $198 Platinum Gas Saver or the $70
TornadoFuelSaver might reap huge benefits?
On ABC News’s “20/20,” the inventor of the Platinum Gas Saver asserted that
skepticism over his product was partly because of a smear campaign by the
tobacco industry — and he then posted on his Web site a brash “as seen on”
reference to the newsmagazine.
Gas-Saving Traps
Dr. Carl Haugtvedt, a social psychologist who is an associate professor of
marketing logistics at Ohio State University, said that the kind of faith that
draws consumers to gadgets like these was actually important to human mental
health. Part of the attraction stems from hopefulness and a willingness to trust
that something can improve a painful situation. Another factor is self-delusion,
which protects the ego by letting a person overlook bad decisions.
“You could admit to yourself that you were wrong, you wasted this money, you
burned this money, say ‘I’m an idiot,’ ” Dr. Haugtvedt said. “That’s very tough
on the self.”
People who are hopeful enough to try out a fuel-economy enhancer will look for
any positive sign they can find to convince themselves that they made a good
decision. They may put the device in their car and, at the same time, get a
tune-up — something suggested in the installation instructions with many
devices. Or, because the owners are paying more attention to their cars, they
may realize that their tires are underinflated and add some air. Then, each time
they add fuel at the gas pump, they attribute any mileage gain to the device.
Consumer Reports’ experts are accustomed to such consumer behavior. David
Champion, director of automobile testing, urges people to be aware of how cars
work so they can be wiser buyers. When the magazine recently tested the Fuel
Genie, the TornadoFuelSaver and the Platinum Gas Saver, it found they had no
effect.
“We read the instructions extremely well, followed them to the absolute letter,
and did a fuel-economy run,” Mr. Champion said. The drives were done using fuel
meters spliced into the gasoline lines to measure the volume of fuel consumed,
and the same test runs used to evaluate new cars were performed. “They didn’t
make any difference at all,” he said.
Mr. Champion said drivers should look beyond the powerful advertising behind the
devices and, instead, modify their driving. “Drive as if you’ve got a cup of
coffee on your dashboard and you don’t want to spill it,” he said. “No heavy
acceleration, no heavy braking.”
Mr. Allen, at Popular Mechanics, has an alternate solution. “If you want to save
gas,” he said, “stay home.”
Simply Amazing! (The Promises, Not the Gas Savings)
By TIM MORAN
Published: August 6, 2006
THE federal Environmental Protection Agency maintains a full laboratory where it
will gladly test a miraculous fuel-saving device for $30,000. But so far, the
biggest customer of the lab has been the Federal Trade Commission, which uses it
to debunk false advertising claims.
The latest products have received a lift from the Internet and television
infomercials. But while the inventiveness of the marketing has improved, the
success of the devices has not.
“We tested about 100 products, a little more than a hundred, and we can boil
them down to saying that they don’t work,” John Millett, an E.P.A. spokesman,
said.
The F.T.C. lists the results of its tests at the E.P.A. lab on its consumer
protection Web site, www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/gasave.pdf. If the
F.T.C. decides a product is falsely advertised it can take action against the
company selling it.
The E.P.A. reviews the chemicals used in gasoline additives, to ensure that what
comes out of the tailpipe is no more harmful than emissions from regular fuel.
It then issues a registration letter.
This letter does not constitute approval or endorsement, but marketers often use
it to claim E.P.A. “certification.”
Some fuel or oil additives can be a problem for engines and fuel systems.
Additives displace protective chemicals in gasoline and engine oil; some may
corrode fuel pumps or gas tanks, or make flexible fuel hoses and fittings
brittle. Instead of enhancing engine life and economy, users might shorten their
car’s life.
A senior editor at Popular Mechanics magazine, Mike Allen, found results similar
to those obtained by the E.P.A. when he took a crateful of fuel-saving
contraptions to a Texas testing lab to check their effectiveness. “None of them
improved fuel economy, several of them increased fuel consumption and most of
them cost horsepower,” Mr. Allen said in an interview.
To test the gizmos, Mr. Allen used a pair of chassis dynamometers made available
by the Universal Technical Institute, a Houston vocational school. A dynamometer
is a machine that measures the power output of a running vehicle on rollers to
allow its wheels to spin as though they were rolling along pavement.
When fuel consumption was carefully measured, first without and then with the
so-called “enhancers” — everything from the Fuel Atomizer 2000, a gadget that
took fuel through a big loop of copper tubing to vaporize it and pump it back
into the engine, to the Electronic Engine Ionizer, a device that is supposed to
feed energy back and forth to one cylinder or another through clip-on wires.
Some gadgets were hard to install; others were hazardous. “This device had
something they called ‘capacitor blocks,’ ” Mr. Allen said of the Electronic
Engine Ionizer. “They melted and dripped onto the adjustment bolt and caught
fire.”
Another device, the AquaTune, cost $399 and resulted in 20 less horsepower and a
20 percent drop in mileage.
Mr. Allen reported on his findings in the magazine’s September 2005 issue. He
recalled recently that after a week of testing he had gained respect not for the
technology involved, but for the persuasive skills of promoters.
He pointed out that any carmaker that could honestly promise economy gains of
300 percent, 30 percent or even 3 percent would be doing that rather than
offering cash incentives to sell vehicles in a brutally competitive global
market.
Auto companies employ some of the world’s top engineers, and they are desperate
for an edge in the economy sweepstakes. “The possibility that some guy who’s
tinkering in his back yard is going to come up with it is really remote,” Mr.
Allen said.
Why do people who have spent tens of thousands of dollars on a well-engineered
car believe that the $100 Fuel Genie, the $198 Platinum Gas Saver or the $70
TornadoFuelSaver might reap huge benefits?
On ABC News’s “20/20,” the inventor of the Platinum Gas Saver asserted that
skepticism over his product was partly because of a smear campaign by the
tobacco industry — and he then posted on his Web site a brash “as seen on”
reference to the newsmagazine.
Gas-Saving Traps
Dr. Carl Haugtvedt, a social psychologist who is an associate professor of
marketing logistics at Ohio State University, said that the kind of faith that
draws consumers to gadgets like these was actually important to human mental
health. Part of the attraction stems from hopefulness and a willingness to trust
that something can improve a painful situation. Another factor is self-delusion,
which protects the ego by letting a person overlook bad decisions.
“You could admit to yourself that you were wrong, you wasted this money, you
burned this money, say ‘I’m an idiot,’ ” Dr. Haugtvedt said. “That’s very tough
on the self.”
People who are hopeful enough to try out a fuel-economy enhancer will look for
any positive sign they can find to convince themselves that they made a good
decision. They may put the device in their car and, at the same time, get a
tune-up — something suggested in the installation instructions with many
devices. Or, because the owners are paying more attention to their cars, they
may realize that their tires are underinflated and add some air. Then, each time
they add fuel at the gas pump, they attribute any mileage gain to the device.
Consumer Reports’ experts are accustomed to such consumer behavior. David
Champion, director of automobile testing, urges people to be aware of how cars
work so they can be wiser buyers. When the magazine recently tested the Fuel
Genie, the TornadoFuelSaver and the Platinum Gas Saver, it found they had no
effect.
“We read the instructions extremely well, followed them to the absolute letter,
and did a fuel-economy run,” Mr. Champion said. The drives were done using fuel
meters spliced into the gasoline lines to measure the volume of fuel consumed,
and the same test runs used to evaluate new cars were performed. “They didn’t
make any difference at all,” he said.
Mr. Champion said drivers should look beyond the powerful advertising behind the
devices and, instead, modify their driving. “Drive as if you’ve got a cup of
coffee on your dashboard and you don’t want to spill it,” he said. “No heavy
acceleration, no heavy braking.”
Mr. Allen, at Popular Mechanics, has an alternate solution. “If you want to save
gas,” he said, “stay home.”
Last edited by Eddywill; Jun 21, 2008 at 12:24 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 24,460
Likes: 7
From: sw Ohio
Mythbusters installed one of those plate systems into a car and it didnt work. Then they tried to run an old carbed Monte Carlo off pure hyrdrogen gas and it caught fire! However, it was running on it for a few min.
Thread Starter
Advanced
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Get a life Ed! I want positive folks with intelligence who have or are willing to get personal experience. If you don't believe it, I am OK with that. Go somewhere else to play and get off my thread...please.
Thread Starter
Advanced
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Yea, to run pure hydrogen gas takes more than adding HHO to the intake and mixing with fuel although it can and has been done.
There is a lot of hype and the onboard fuel cell seems to be in its infancy stage. There are 3000 ways not to make a light buld, but does that mean that it can't be done.
How many rockets blew up before we made it to the moon?
There is a lot of hype and the onboard fuel cell seems to be in its infancy stage. There are 3000 ways not to make a light buld, but does that mean that it can't be done.
How many rockets blew up before we made it to the moon?
Racer
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 283
Likes: 0
From: Pace Florida
Race Director
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 14,924
Likes: 9
From: Merritt Ils Fl
jrcakc, why do I get the impression you will not be here very long? Comments like the quote do not set well with either the mods or forum members.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,830
Likes: 147
From: Gainesville FL
A machinist at my work is building one
I'll get more info from him to see how it works out. It seems to me that it would take a heck of lot of artistry to get one to fit into a vette knowing how packed everthing is.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,135
Likes: 0
From: Sebastian Florida
St. Jude Donor '06
There is a guy on the web,who will sell you a kit to run hydrogen in your car. Dont know his website.
Racer
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 283
Likes: 0
From: Pace Florida
Last edited by Eddywill; Jun 21, 2008 at 05:46 PM.
Drifting
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,543
Likes: 1
From: Levittown NY
If water vapor constitutes Earth's most significant greenhouse gas, accounting for about 95% of Earth's greenhouse effect, how is hydrogen such a great thing? Why do all the tree huggers who also think global warming is man made keep pushing it as the future fuel for cars? Not only are you polluting to make the hydrogen but then further warming the earth when you use it. I don't get it. Please explain...
Drifting
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,543
Likes: 1
From: Levittown NY
Racer
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 393
Likes: 0
From: Bartonville Illinois
I have no doubt that a car can run on anything that will burn, but it takes more money to make the conversion than this thread implies.
I have done some work with hydrogen fuel cells and converters and a major investment was made in each system. Hundreds of thousands of dollars per system and they wouldn't fit in a pick up truck bed.
There are probably smarter fuels for us to use, and we should, but power out never equals power in due to losses.
Under gov't regulations if a manufacturer could actually sell you a car that was the same size and features of his competitor and got 30 percent better mileage, I don't think he would hold back on putting this guy out of business?
I tried cow magnets for better fuel economy and all I got was my neighbors cows hanging around licking the dirt off my truck and leaving methane generators laying all over the yard..
I think its time for the moderators to dig out my thread from the "off topic" section about gas mileage and let a few more people read it.
I have done some work with hydrogen fuel cells and converters and a major investment was made in each system. Hundreds of thousands of dollars per system and they wouldn't fit in a pick up truck bed.
There are probably smarter fuels for us to use, and we should, but power out never equals power in due to losses.
Under gov't regulations if a manufacturer could actually sell you a car that was the same size and features of his competitor and got 30 percent better mileage, I don't think he would hold back on putting this guy out of business?
I tried cow magnets for better fuel economy and all I got was my neighbors cows hanging around licking the dirt off my truck and leaving methane generators laying all over the yard..
I think its time for the moderators to dig out my thread from the "off topic" section about gas mileage and let a few more people read it.
Thread Starter
Advanced
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
I will be here a long time.
This is getting way out of the context of what I was wanting and requested. I simply asked "Has anyone put an onboard hydrogen fuel cell in their car to improved DD mileage?”
If I somehow offended any forum members I sincerely apologize! This forum has saved me many dollars and the knowledge that can be gained here is phenomenal! Anyone want to report me that will be great, I have broke no rules. Clearly prohibited is "No bombing forums or threads with pointless posts."
Muffin, your impression of me and how long I will be here is pointless and your opinion of what others could think is bombing my forum. 2 strikes in one post.
rharker, if you post the results he gets, I will greatly appreciate it. Is he putting it on a Vette? This is what I was hoping for.
eddywill, I see that you have done some research and I agree. Thanks for the post. A fuel cell is easy to make and you can buy all the parts for less than a Franklin or make one from scrap lying around most garages. There are great videos out there of how not to make one and how to make an on-demand cell.
I am ordering the parts for one now and if I put it on a vehicle and it does not work to improve mileage, I will have a cool torch to show people how water can burn. I will put it on a 93 350 first!
If I somehow offended any forum members I sincerely apologize! This forum has saved me many dollars and the knowledge that can be gained here is phenomenal! Anyone want to report me that will be great, I have broke no rules. Clearly prohibited is "No bombing forums or threads with pointless posts."
Muffin, your impression of me and how long I will be here is pointless and your opinion of what others could think is bombing my forum. 2 strikes in one post.
rharker, if you post the results he gets, I will greatly appreciate it. Is he putting it on a Vette? This is what I was hoping for.
eddywill, I see that you have done some research and I agree. Thanks for the post. A fuel cell is easy to make and you can buy all the parts for less than a Franklin or make one from scrap lying around most garages. There are great videos out there of how not to make one and how to make an on-demand cell.
I am ordering the parts for one now and if I put it on a vehicle and it does not work to improve mileage, I will have a cool torch to show people how water can burn. I will put it on a 93 350 first!
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 230
Likes: 1
From: Covington GA
I've been running a lot of calculations on this in the past month, as I get quite a few people writing to me at work who are contemplating such a move. And I wanted to be able to have some good solid information to present to them. So, here's the summary of what I came up with.
1. To replace 1 gallon of gasoline, you would have to decompose 2.2 gallons of water into hydrogen.
2. To generate enough hydrogen in one hour to replace one gallon of gasoline with a 100% efficient generator, you would need a 2,500 amp alternator, which would take 50 horsepower to drive. (Do I really need to calculate what a steady 50 hp drain would do to your gas mileage?)
3. A system that ran purely off battery power and was plugged in to recharge it, sized large enough to make a difference on a car like a Corvette, would require between 1,000 and 2,000 lbs of batteries if you were using Optima deep cycle batteries or something comparable.
4. Depending on the efficiency of your generator, making the hydrogen at home and bottling it, while a more practical solution, would probably be the equivalent of $6 to $8 per gallon gas.
Want to check my math? I went into a lot more details about how to size a hydrogen system on my blog.
Part 1: Calculating how much hydrogen you need
Part 2: Calculating the electrical requirements
Part 3: Shopping for a battery pack
Part 4: What if you didn't put the generator on the car?
Bottom line: The systems you'll see them promoting on the Internet are way too small to have any effect and would require major re-engineering of your electrical system if they were large enough to do anything.
1. To replace 1 gallon of gasoline, you would have to decompose 2.2 gallons of water into hydrogen.
2. To generate enough hydrogen in one hour to replace one gallon of gasoline with a 100% efficient generator, you would need a 2,500 amp alternator, which would take 50 horsepower to drive. (Do I really need to calculate what a steady 50 hp drain would do to your gas mileage?)
3. A system that ran purely off battery power and was plugged in to recharge it, sized large enough to make a difference on a car like a Corvette, would require between 1,000 and 2,000 lbs of batteries if you were using Optima deep cycle batteries or something comparable.
4. Depending on the efficiency of your generator, making the hydrogen at home and bottling it, while a more practical solution, would probably be the equivalent of $6 to $8 per gallon gas.
Want to check my math? I went into a lot more details about how to size a hydrogen system on my blog.
Part 1: Calculating how much hydrogen you need
Part 2: Calculating the electrical requirements
Part 3: Shopping for a battery pack
Part 4: What if you didn't put the generator on the car?
Bottom line: The systems you'll see them promoting on the Internet are way too small to have any effect and would require major re-engineering of your electrical system if they were large enough to do anything.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 778
Likes: 0
From: Fort Worth Texas
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 23,186
Likes: 117
From: San Antonio Texas
I'd be interested in some real documented results. Most of those hydrogen makers I've seen take about 10 minutes to fill a kids party balloon. Hardly enough to keep a running 350 lit. I haven't seen anybody's "add on" devices yet that were worth the gas it takes to haul them down the road. Congress can't change the laws of physics or thermodynamics either. If any U.S.auto maker could build a car that got double the horsepower using half the fuel, everybody would rush over and buy their stuff.