why so many automatic c4's?
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 14,680
Likes: 752
From: NEwhere Ohio
why so many automatic c4's?
Im curious why there were so many automatic c4's.
I am discovering my 93 6spd convertible seems to be a rare car.
I imagine if you were shopping for miata's or honda s2000 you'd be hard pressed to find an automatic (did they even make one)?
Heres some of my speculation:
1. The 4 speed auto in the c4 was the first time GM got an automatic transmission, in a sports car, right so every one wanted it.
2. The goofy 4+3 manual transmission gave everyone a bad-taste-in-their mouth towards manuals of any sort (Even the improved ZF6).
3. Lazy, older corvette drivers thought the cars were a subsitute for 'cadillac's ' and didnt want to be shifting gears.
This is not meant as a dog in anyway against the automatic (which im convinced are faster during drag races).
It does seem the 6spd's made a come back in the c5 and c6 (Esp. the verts.
I am discovering my 93 6spd convertible seems to be a rare car.
I imagine if you were shopping for miata's or honda s2000 you'd be hard pressed to find an automatic (did they even make one)?
Heres some of my speculation:
1. The 4 speed auto in the c4 was the first time GM got an automatic transmission, in a sports car, right so every one wanted it.
2. The goofy 4+3 manual transmission gave everyone a bad-taste-in-their mouth towards manuals of any sort (Even the improved ZF6).
3. Lazy, older corvette drivers thought the cars were a subsitute for 'cadillac's ' and didnt want to be shifting gears.
This is not meant as a dog in anyway against the automatic (which im convinced are faster during drag races).
It does seem the 6spd's made a come back in the c5 and c6 (Esp. the verts.
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,331
Likes: 2
I think the reason why there were so many autos in the 80s cars in particular is because the Sticks couldn't handle the V8s of the time.
Not only that, but GM seemed to be suffering an identity crisis during the 80s. They were trying to make both cheap econo cars, and quality cars like the Camaro and the Corvette.
Most people have little or no higher brain functions, and thus the manual at the time was considered undesirable with those two factors in.
The ZF6, wasn't what I'd call a stellar transmission either, not with the T56 that came out in short order after that. (Why the vette didn't get an IMMEDIATE retrofit for the T56 I don't understand at all seeing as how the F Cars got it as soon as GM picked it up in 93)
I've given up hope of ever scoring a manual 89 C4. (my favorite year of C4) My next stick car will be either a Gen 4 F Car, or a C5.
Much much easier to find, and the transmission itself is worlds beyond the ZF.
Not only that, but GM seemed to be suffering an identity crisis during the 80s. They were trying to make both cheap econo cars, and quality cars like the Camaro and the Corvette.
Most people have little or no higher brain functions, and thus the manual at the time was considered undesirable with those two factors in.
The ZF6, wasn't what I'd call a stellar transmission either, not with the T56 that came out in short order after that. (Why the vette didn't get an IMMEDIATE retrofit for the T56 I don't understand at all seeing as how the F Cars got it as soon as GM picked it up in 93)
I've given up hope of ever scoring a manual 89 C4. (my favorite year of C4) My next stick car will be either a Gen 4 F Car, or a C5.
Much much easier to find, and the transmission itself is worlds beyond the ZF.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,233
Likes: 419
Im curious why there were so many automatic c4's.
I am discovering my 93 6spd convertible seems to be a rare car.
I imagine if you were shopping for miata's or honda s2000 you'd be hard pressed to find an automatic (did they even make one)?
Heres some of my speculation:
1. The 4 speed auto in the c4 was the first time GM got an automatic transmission, in a sports car, right so every one wanted it.
2. The goofy 4+3 manual transmission gave everyone a bad-taste-in-their mouth towards manuals of any sort (Even the improved ZF6).
3. Lazy, older corvette drivers thought the cars were a subsitute for 'cadillac's ' and didnt want to be shifting gears.
This is not meant as a dog in anyway against the automatic (which im convinced are faster during drag races).
It does seem the 6spd's made a come back in the c5 and c6 (Esp. the verts.
I am discovering my 93 6spd convertible seems to be a rare car.
I imagine if you were shopping for miata's or honda s2000 you'd be hard pressed to find an automatic (did they even make one)?
Heres some of my speculation:
1. The 4 speed auto in the c4 was the first time GM got an automatic transmission, in a sports car, right so every one wanted it.
2. The goofy 4+3 manual transmission gave everyone a bad-taste-in-their mouth towards manuals of any sort (Even the improved ZF6).
3. Lazy, older corvette drivers thought the cars were a subsitute for 'cadillac's ' and didnt want to be shifting gears.
This is not meant as a dog in anyway against the automatic (which im convinced are faster during drag races).
It does seem the 6spd's made a come back in the c5 and c6 (Esp. the verts.
Race Director
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 10,691
Likes: 71
From: Phoenix Arizona
Prior to the 700r4 there was a major difference in performance and economy between manuals and automatics, not so much anymore. The overdrive trans give great launch, great economy, and great reliability. Some people cling to the old school idea that to be a sports car, it must be uncomfortable, a manual trans, and driven hard. The corvette is a GT (grand touring) car, not a sports care per se, although it can be a very good sports car. Times have changed, a lot of us old timers had parents or grandparents who thought automatics, power windows, power steering, and air conditioning were ridiculous expenses AND for sissies. Except for the automatics, you don't hear much of that anymore.
Quite a few Miatas and s200s come with automatics, but they tend to be in pastel colors!
Quite a few Miatas and s200s come with automatics, but they tend to be in pastel colors!
Last edited by zr1fred; Mar 25, 2013 at 11:34 AM.
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,331
Likes: 2
Prior to the 700r4 there was a major difference in performance and economy between manuals and automatics, not so much anymore. The overdrive trans give great launch, great economy, and great reliability. Some people cling to the old school idea that to be a sports car, it must be uncomfortable, a manual trans, and driven hard. The corvette is a GT (grand touring) car, not a sports care per se, although it can be a very good sports car. Times have changed, a lot of us old timers had parents or grandparents who thought automatics, power windows, power steering, and air conditioning were ridiculous expenses AND for sissies. Except for the automatics, you don't here much of that anymore.
I also seldom use my Air Conditioning, (I have windows... and a removable roof. Unless it's raining I have no reason to use it... besides it's not like the AC does much to actually -make the car cold- in a Southern Summer with a glass roof)
Team Owner
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 34,873
Likes: 487
From: Lacey WA RVN 68-69
NCM Sinkhole Donor
There were only 5330 manual trans cars in 1993 and that was both coupes and 'verts including the 448 Zr-1's. There was a point where Corvettes came with an auto trans as standard and you paid something like $1000 or so for the manual as optional equipment; the 6-speed in my '02 coupe was a $915 option. So it's possible that buyers didn't want to spend a lot of extra money for the 6-speed.
The 4+3 was created primarily to solve the CAFE requirements from the early 80's The Borg-Warner Super T-10 had been around for years and was well-known for it's strength behind high HP motors. But the gas mileage averages had to be met. The T-5 that was used in F-bodies and Mustangs of the early 80's simply didn't have the strength. And the design of that trans would have been a problem in terms of the C-beam mounting, shifter location and angle and changing the 5th gear ratio.
GM had a good auto trans in Corvettes The TH350 and TH400 versions worked well behind GM performance cars including the Camaro, Firebird, the various muscle cars of the 60's and early 70's.
The 4+3 was created primarily to solve the CAFE requirements from the early 80's The Borg-Warner Super T-10 had been around for years and was well-known for it's strength behind high HP motors. But the gas mileage averages had to be met. The T-5 that was used in F-bodies and Mustangs of the early 80's simply didn't have the strength. And the design of that trans would have been a problem in terms of the C-beam mounting, shifter location and angle and changing the 5th gear ratio.
GM had a good auto trans in Corvettes The TH350 and TH400 versions worked well behind GM performance cars including the Camaro, Firebird, the various muscle cars of the 60's and early 70's.
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 21,543
Likes: 3,216
From: Park City Utah
What bb62 said.
1. I don't think that they did "get it right" w/the 700 as an auto in a sports car. The low, low 1st gear is good for getting boats and trucks moving, but the BIG 1>2 gear ratio drop isn't very "sports-car" like. Plus, how weak was the thing when it first came out?
2. I agree that the 4+3 was weird, but it met the criteria. I think a T5 would have been a better option
3. I agree that MOST Amercian drivers are lazy, and that contributes to the plethora of auto shifted vehicles. Try finding a 1/2 ton truck w/a stick anymore. Doesn't exist.
3a. Auto's are faster at the drags, ONLY when you get to the point where the time spent w/the clutch in, outweighs the inefficiencies of the auto trans. IOW, slower cars go faster w/sticks, and fast cars go faster w/autos, simply b/c it's harder to manage the events happening at those speeds, perfectly and repeatedly. But a stock LT1 auto won't be faster than a stock LT1 stick, for example. OTOH, the "average 'merican" will probably go down the track quicker w/an auto.
1. The 4 speed auto in the c4 was the first time GM got an automatic transmission, in a sports car, right so every one wanted it.
2. The goofy 4+3 manual transmission gave everyone a bad-taste-in-their mouth towards manuals of any sort (Even the improved ZF6).
3. Lazy, older corvette drivers thought the cars were a subsitute for 'cadillac's ' and didnt want to be shifting gears.
This is not meant as a dog in anyway against the automatic (which im convinced are faster during drag races).
2. The goofy 4+3 manual transmission gave everyone a bad-taste-in-their mouth towards manuals of any sort (Even the improved ZF6).
3. Lazy, older corvette drivers thought the cars were a subsitute for 'cadillac's ' and didnt want to be shifting gears.
This is not meant as a dog in anyway against the automatic (which im convinced are faster during drag races).
2. I agree that the 4+3 was weird, but it met the criteria. I think a T5 would have been a better option
3. I agree that MOST Amercian drivers are lazy, and that contributes to the plethora of auto shifted vehicles. Try finding a 1/2 ton truck w/a stick anymore. Doesn't exist.
3a. Auto's are faster at the drags, ONLY when you get to the point where the time spent w/the clutch in, outweighs the inefficiencies of the auto trans. IOW, slower cars go faster w/sticks, and fast cars go faster w/autos, simply b/c it's harder to manage the events happening at those speeds, perfectly and repeatedly. But a stock LT1 auto won't be faster than a stock LT1 stick, for example. OTOH, the "average 'merican" will probably go down the track quicker w/an auto.
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Racer
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 440
Likes: 2
From: Springfield Ohio
I agree there are an awful lot of automatic C4's especially nowadays since the cars are getting older and dying off so to speak. When I was searching for my car a little over a year ago I don't think I saw more than 2-3 manuals in the 92-96 range which was what I wanted. My whole thing was I was going to get the best car I could and the manuals had high mileage were not in good shape and the car I got was an automatic but I really didn't have much choice. However I really prefer an automatic for a daily driver. I learned to drive stick on an 86 porsche 944 and had the clutch go out when I was driving down the road. So for me I will never get a higher mileage manual around 50k or higher too many components to go wrong and I never want to have a clutch go out again while I'm driving down the road.
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 16,475
Likes: 270
From: Kingman AZ
Cruise-In VII Veteran
Cruise-In VIII
St. Jude Donor '06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16
I remember attending a class in 1984. Our U S Army Transportation unit was given new trucks that came with automatic transmissions. The instructor stated that the military was going to automatic transmissions in all their vehicles because the majority of their trainees did not know how to drive stick shifts any more.
He stated that American car buyers liked the convenience and luxury of not having to clutch and shift anymore.
Lazy? A little of that but I think most people like to pamper themselves with a little luxury here and there.
He stated that American car buyers liked the convenience and luxury of not having to clutch and shift anymore.
Lazy? A little of that but I think most people like to pamper themselves with a little luxury here and there.
Racer
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 365
Likes: 27
From: Shelby Township Michigan
After my recent auto to ZF conversion there's now one less 1993 auto C4 out there.
Finally got to drive further than down the block this weekend and I'm loving the change. My 12 YR old son really loves the difference in power. Anyhow, I got my 2012 SRT Superbee with paddleshifters for my automatic.
Ultimately, I wanted a different driving experience and now I've got it.
Finally got to drive further than down the block this weekend and I'm loving the change. My 12 YR old son really loves the difference in power. Anyhow, I got my 2012 SRT Superbee with paddleshifters for my automatic.
Ultimately, I wanted a different driving experience and now I've got it.
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 21,543
Likes: 3,216
From: Park City Utah
A stick is absolutely, hands down, a simpler, more reliable mechanical system.
I also don't consider auto shift feature to be "luxurious". A stick CAN be driven more seamlessly than an auto. To me, it makes no difference in "luxury" but auto brings the car one step closer to being an appliance, rather than a toy or recreational item.
Race Director
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 10,691
Likes: 71
From: Phoenix Arizona
Most of the time a corvette is an appliance, not an extension. Most stick cars now days are driven a lot harder than automatics, and when you buy a used stick you are also buying that prior usage.
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,772
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From: Rolla Missouri
2021 C4 of the Year - Unmodified Finalist
St. Jude Donor '10 thru '25
None of the above - Truth is that Corvettes have been trending toward automatics since the early C3s. The 67 had maybe 10% automatics. By 1972, it was over 50% due to the THM transmissions which were well regarded in their day. Through the 70s, as performance went down, the use of automatics went up as Corvettes became less performance cars than daily drivers that people wanted to use in traffic. By the year 1982, you could not even get a manual with the Corvette - all were automatics. If anything, the additional of the 4+3 to the C4 line-up INCREASED manual usage since that allowed GM to certify emissions and customers achieved better gas mileage than prior manuals.
And that trend continues today, probably even more so.
Lots more automatic Corvettes out there than manual versions.
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 14,680
Likes: 752
From: NEwhere Ohio
1. lack of an OD
2. wasted a lot of energy thru the torque converter.
I wonder if the 700R4 wastes less energy thru the TQ converter.
Apparently even 700R4 leaves room for improvement as GM has went to 6 speed automatics. Theres even talk about bringing back clutch style sequential manual transmissions (that can be set to shift automatically) to ditch the power robbing Torque conveter
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 14,680
Likes: 752
From: NEwhere Ohio
I look at my power door locks, power windows, and power seat as weight adding pigs
I also seldom use my Air Conditioning, (I have windows... and a removable roof. Unless it's raining I have no reason to use it... besides it's not like the AC does much to actually -make the car cold- in a Southern Summer with a glass roof)
I also seldom use my Air Conditioning, (I have windows... and a removable roof. Unless it's raining I have no reason to use it... besides it's not like the AC does much to actually -make the car cold- in a Southern Summer with a glass roof)
Ive happily ditched the A/C, and power seats (in favor of manual sliders) on my vert.
Ive come to the conclusion the top should be down if Im driving it at which point A/C doesnt make sense.
Of course a summer rainstorm makes A/C useful, but then again those rainstorms are so short-lived that the windows/top are back down again with the sun shining/ birds chirping like nothing ever happened just as soon as the rainstorm started.
Racer
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 440
Likes: 2
From: Springfield Ohio
Seriously? You know how many components it takes to make an auto work?? Way....WAY more than a stick. And I will go ahead a stick my neck and and say that far more autos "go out while driving down the road", than stick/clutches do. Plus to anyone paying attention at all, you get lots of warning when a clutch is "going out". Not so much when an auto trans takes a dump.
A stick is absolutely, hands down, a simpler, more reliable mechanical system.
I also don't consider auto shift feature to be "luxurious". A stick CAN be driven more seamlessly than an auto. To me, it makes no difference in "luxury" but auto brings the car one step closer to being an appliance, rather than a toy or recreational item.
A stick is absolutely, hands down, a simpler, more reliable mechanical system.
I also don't consider auto shift feature to be "luxurious". A stick CAN be driven more seamlessly than an auto. To me, it makes no difference in "luxury" but auto brings the car one step closer to being an appliance, rather than a toy or recreational item.
Yeah seriously. I'm just speaking from personal experience. I've never had or known anyone who has had an auto transmission fail them. I drive my cars everyday not on weekends or for a trip to the drag strip once a month. I know a manual is better for strength and hard driving I don't care I could take it or leave it. I would buy a C6ZO6 in a heart beat if I could afford it and probably the new 7 speed in the C7. But for a used vette no way I'm getting a stick.
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 21,543
Likes: 3,216
From: Park City Utah
Huh. Not mine. Not at all. My 'Vette is for recreational purpose only. I drive it for fun, when I want to. Not an appliance, at all.
You don't know anyone who has had an auto trans fail on them? Do you know...ANYONE?
Well you do now. Hi. I'm Tom. I've had many, many auto trans's fail on me. I've had GF's who had auto cars that the trans's failed on, parents, friends...my best friend, Dan, his Ford F250 just left him stranded at his x-wife's house last week while he was trying to pick up his daughter. Awkward. If you don't know anyone who has lost an auto trans...you are in the VAST minority.
Me and sticks? Never been stranded. Closest I came was towing my boat from CO to Maine a couple summers ago. My 160,000 mile clutch was weak, and I knew it (remember what I said about a clutch giving warning?). I went anyway, and when we got about 1/2 way through Nebraska where there was lower elevation/more air=more tq, my clutch started slipping when the the cruise control throttled the engine. Still, I was able to drive from Nebraska to Maine towing my boat, even by using the throttle very carefully.
I'm going to go ahead and say that your isolated experiences have caused you to create a peculiar and unique opinion. You're certainly entitled to it though!
Yeah seriously. I'm just speaking from personal experience. I've never had or known anyone who has had an auto transmission fail them. I drive my cars everyday not on weekends or for a trip to the drag strip once a month. I know a manual is better for strength and hard driving
Well you do now. Hi. I'm Tom. I've had many, many auto trans's fail on me. I've had GF's who had auto cars that the trans's failed on, parents, friends...my best friend, Dan, his Ford F250 just left him stranded at his x-wife's house last week while he was trying to pick up his daughter. Awkward. If you don't know anyone who has lost an auto trans...you are in the VAST minority.
Me and sticks? Never been stranded. Closest I came was towing my boat from CO to Maine a couple summers ago. My 160,000 mile clutch was weak, and I knew it (remember what I said about a clutch giving warning?). I went anyway, and when we got about 1/2 way through Nebraska where there was lower elevation/more air=more tq, my clutch started slipping when the the cruise control throttled the engine. Still, I was able to drive from Nebraska to Maine towing my boat, even by using the throttle very carefully.
I'm going to go ahead and say that your isolated experiences have caused you to create a peculiar and unique opinion. You're certainly entitled to it though!
Racer
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 440
Likes: 2
From: Springfield Ohio
Huh. Not mine. Not at all. My 'Vette is for recreational purpose only. I drive it for fun, when I want to. Not an appliance, at all.
You don't know anyone who has had an auto trans fail on them? Do you know...ANYONE?
Well you do now. Hi. I'm Tom. I've had many, many auto trans's fail on me. I've had GF's who had auto cars that the trans's failed on, parents, friends...my best friend, Dan, his Ford F250 just left him stranded at his x-wife's house last week while he was trying to pick up his daughter. Awkward. If you don't know anyone who has lost an auto trans...you are in the VAST minority.
Me and sticks? Never been stranded. Closest I came was towing my boat from CO to Maine a couple summers ago. My 160,000 mile clutch was weak, and I knew it (remember what I said about a clutch giving warning?). I went anyway, and when we got about 1/2 way through Nebraska where there was lower elevation/more air=more tq, my clutch started slipping when the the cruise control throttled the engine. Still, I was able to drive from Nebraska to Maine towing my boat, even by using the throttle very carefully.
I'm going to go ahead and say that your isolated experiences have caused you to create a peculiar and unique opinion. You're certainly entitled to it though!
You don't know anyone who has had an auto trans fail on them? Do you know...ANYONE?
Well you do now. Hi. I'm Tom. I've had many, many auto trans's fail on me. I've had GF's who had auto cars that the trans's failed on, parents, friends...my best friend, Dan, his Ford F250 just left him stranded at his x-wife's house last week while he was trying to pick up his daughter. Awkward. If you don't know anyone who has lost an auto trans...you are in the VAST minority.
Me and sticks? Never been stranded. Closest I came was towing my boat from CO to Maine a couple summers ago. My 160,000 mile clutch was weak, and I knew it (remember what I said about a clutch giving warning?). I went anyway, and when we got about 1/2 way through Nebraska where there was lower elevation/more air=more tq, my clutch started slipping when the the cruise control throttled the engine. Still, I was able to drive from Nebraska to Maine towing my boat, even by using the throttle very carefully.
I'm going to go ahead and say that your isolated experiences have caused you to create a peculiar and unique opinion. You're certainly entitled to it though!
Now I do haha. Like I said it 's just my personal experience. Give me another 20 years and I'm sure I'll have a different story. You guys are really making me want to get a manual in my next vette I guess I've just never driven an excellent manual car.