It's pretty much the same thing as Sta-Bil.

I've used Sta-Bil in some of my boats. The times I've not used it, there were no problems.
I've used race gas a few times and it seemed to hold up much better than regular fuel.

I've toyed with the idea of switching to E-85 for my boat since we have 5-10% ethanol in our fuel anyways. It's been killing fuel pumps and the rubbers in the carbs anyways, so I'm thinking of running alcohol friendly fuel lines, fuel pumps and carb setups.

 

I fill up all the cars at Shell and have noticed all of them experience the loss in mpg every year when winter blend hits.

 

Figured the front page would be interested too... https://www.corvetteforum.com/articl...-need-to-know/

 

It's ironic that you ask him why he expressed his off topic political view after expressing your own.

 

So what are we supposed to do? Picket our local gas station? It is what it is.

As you said, "What does this mean to you? Well, unless you have an extreme tune on your car, it won’t be much of a bother."

/thread

 

I don't buy the "lesser quality and lower power" part at all. Yeah, the RVP is higher in the winter so you car will start. You MAY see a little drop in fuel economy. But the cooler air will increase your manifold density and power will be up, not down.

Actually, the big change from decades ago is that the RVP is reduced for summer blends to cut down on unburned hydrocarbons from evaporation. They used to sell "winter grade" all year round cuz it is cheaper to produce.

 

Lol .... you better re-evaluate your position on this. There is no getting around the fact that the "energy content" of winter blend fuel is lower.

 

Ok, so now "I" am confused. I put Lucas Upper Cylinder Lubricant fuel treatment in my car. When I drive it in the summer, spring, fall and part of the winter, I use the recommended amount on the bottle.
I was told by the mechanic at the Chevrolet dealership if the car was going to sit for 30-45 days I should use double the amount. I usually run Shell premium gas so am I hurting my engine, wasting money or am I OK?

 

Yes your wasting your money. Don't put anymore additives in your fuel or your oil, regardless of circumstances. Your fine without them. You have not damaged anything although you probably will if you keep putting something besides gasoline in the fuel tank.

 

Power wise, there is; Integrator and BLM. In newer cars that would be fuel trim.

 

First, like you said earlier; there's no way to know for certain with actual testing because neither of us are going to dyno a car and test both versions of fuel.

That being said, I don't think it works that way. Fuel trim will be adjusted by the ecm/pcm in an effort to maintain the stoichiometric ratio. The ecm/pcm can make no adjustments relative to power output. Instead it can only adjust for the proper air fuel ratio, and at that ratio the engine will make less power because there is less energy in the fuel. Its possible that with less energy content, less o2 will be consumed during the combustion process causing the ecm/pcm to enrich the a/f ratio and restoring normal power output. The issue I have with that is simply; its not probable based on what we all already know for certain. Obviously, when the cars are in open loop at wide open throttle (or cold) no ecm/pcm adjustments are being made and none of them from any manufacturer run too lean at these times. Also we know for certain that the "long chain" hydrocarbons normally in the fuel are replaced with butane (which is the problem in the first place) to promote cold starting (supposedly). This also has the side benefit of maintaining the proper a/f mixture during open loop at least as it relates to the fuel itself. To me, it seems impossible that a refiner would produce a fuel that would require a different a/f ratio, if nothing else, every car with a carburetor would experience drivability problems.

 

Is it? Isn't that what happens when you open a can of worms?!?

Off topic. No irony. No apology. Disappointing.

Just kind of started my day with a big, fat, stinking turd in a place where I normally go to find camaraderie.

Lowers my respect for C4 drivers. Done with the wave.

Ethanol free regular and premium all around the upstate, but I use the Shell Vpower. I prefer tier 1. Have not noticed any difference in MPG so far.

 

That is precisely my thinking. IDK if I'm right. As for WOT/open loop, doesn't BLM contribute to long term fuel trims in open loop? IDK on OBD I, but I believe that's how it works on OBD II.

I don't know for certain, if this position is true, but it is my belief as I haven't been able to discern any power changes at all. My opinion has been that fuel economy drops in the winter due to colder, cold starts, longer warm up time, colder oil, trans, diff, PS fluids creating more drag. I feel that is where the meaningful losses are in the winter.


Before feedback and electronic controls they did. Hence the old spring and fall tune up ritual, which if done properly would have included jetting and choke adjustments. In reality, this probably wasn't done and cars ran "good enough" for most oblivious people.

 

The corn in our gas Was put there to replace MBTE .The MBTE was eating up the gas storage tanks at gas stations and polluting the ground.They needed a different octane booster and something to make the our engines burn cleaner.Also When they first started using ethanol California which has the strictest pollution laws said with modern cars it wasn't necessary.They tried to lobby against it.

 

Yes, it's not necessary at all. There is no benefit to adding oxygenates to fuels in any modern fuel injected car (or even one with those awful feed back carbs fro that matter). None. It's all a boondoggle for the corn state voters.

 

Just a question on your statement.

Doesn't the ECM/PCM or whatever management system only care about knock or pre-detonation? I believe rated power output is a distant fourth of fifth priority of the engine management system.

If the knock sensors detect pre-detonation, then the ECM/PCM enrich the fuel until (up to a set limit) the knock or pre-detonation stops. So if the fuel is not of the correct octane level the car will enrich the A/F ratio until pre-detonation is eliminated or a set "check engine" light is determined.

 

Interesting article:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...ence-13747431/

Mine def has more power in this cool dry air. I usually save some E85 from July as that damn gasoline content increases as it gets colder out!

 

When the knock sensors activate, I think the primary adjustment is retarding of the ignition timing, which immediately stops the knock. The fuel ratio may be enriched too, not sure...

What I do know is, besides the knock sensors, the other sensors such as oxygen sensors, throttle position sensor, engine coolant temperature sensor, mass airflow sensor, engine RPM etc etc... they all contribute data to the ECM/PCM to produce best power for the demand, and keep emissions as low as reasonably possible in the given situation.

On topic, I would not worry about fuel degradation over periods less than 3 months. However, I would be concerned about ethanol bringing in extra moisture when stored long-term in humid environments. Beyond 3 months, I would use a commercial fuel stabilizer. But obviously the best solution is just run the engine to full temperature periodically so things don't just sit there for extended periods. Even if it's not driven, at least running the engine periodically will stir things up and get everything flowing and hot... way better than the car being in a coma.

I don't think engine power is affected by winter fuel blends as long as the octane rating is consistent. Power may go up if the ambient temperatures are significantly cooler, but not by much (hot coolant runs through the throttle body in stock configuration). Generally, MPG will drop depending on the fuel's energy content by volume (energy content is different than octane rating).

 

EDIT: ^^^Ha ha ha...we were typing virtually the same thing at the same time!


No. Spark knock is managed with ignition timing, not A/F ratios. A/F ratios are "trimmed" or tailored to operating conditions by feedback from the O2 sensor(s). Trying to limit pinging by adding fuel would cause a plethora of issues from emissions, to cat life, fuel economy etc.

Changing the the fuel chemistry to winter or summer blends doesn't ultimately change octane; that isn't the issue. 91 octane product in the summer should still meet the same criteria in the winter, and be a 91 octane product.

The OP is saying that the energy content (which is totally different than octane rating) is lower with winter blend. IOW, it takes a greater volume of winter blend fuel to create the same BTU's of energy than it would take summer blend. To make the same HP on winter blend, injector pulse needs to be longer (for same conditions) than with summer blend...which lowers fuel economy. Is that what happens? IDK for sure. It is my contention that the lower energy content winter blend would create a lean condition, the ECM would see that feedback from the O2's and adjust. Power would remain essentially the same, but fuel economy would suffer.

The other possibility is that the lower energy content doesn't "register" as a lean mix for the O2, and injector pulse width doesn't change (for a given condition). In that case, fuel economy wouldn't change, but power would suffer.

Which is happening? Maybe a combination of both, but I've never noticed a loss of power in the winter (SOTP) but I definitely notice a loss of fuel economy as I hand - calc every tank. That proves nothing though, as I feel there are other detractors to fuel economy than fuel type:
Cold oil, trans fluid, diff, PS oil all adds drag
Colder, cold starts, longer warm up times all add to enrichment for every start up. etc. So IDK.

I'd bet $100 bucks that I could go to the track in the winter and run high 13's though...which is exactly what I can run in the summer. It would be fun/interesting to try, but our crappy track is closed in the winter.



.

 

The huge loss of traction (lower track/tire temp, track unseasoned, less track prep, etc) isn't made up by the added hp in the cool dry air. My combos have always ran slower times. Others may be different.