Tom400CFI

Back in the day, I thought short shifters were "IT". Why didn't all cars come with short shifters? Especially sports cars? The goal is to shift fast so why would anyone build a sports car with a longish throw shifter??

Later in life, after many drag track passes, I realized that short shifters don't actually help you shift faster, and in some cases, they actually hurt shift performance (if not shift "feel").

I saw THIS ARTICLE and it echoed my sentiments so I thought I'd share. The auther is young and still learning,, but he's right on the spot about shifters -excluding "feel".

I've always yearned for an aftermarket shifter that improves feel -like most aftermarket shifters do...but maintains the stock geometry, to retain the stock leverage, and the nice, stock C4's close proximity of the shift **** to the steering wheel.

Could you do the ZFDoc shifter mods to a stock shift lever and maintain the stock geometry? To me, that would be ideal. The shifter is something that I've not gotten into yet.

84 4+3

Pretty much sums up what I thought.

TorchTarga94

I think that was a very well written article and completely agree. This is coming from someone who actually installed a Hurst short throw on a 94 6M Coupe. Not every vehicle needs a short throw, not even a ZF6 C4. The factory shifter is more than sufficient and felt great to me. If you are a pro, sure it might knock off a 100th of a second, but for the average enthusiast who likes to drive aggressively, or occasionally attend a track event, quicker shifts can be achieved by focusing on foot work more so than a mechanical change to a, "shorter throw/with more effort."

With all that said, I thoroughly enjoy the Hurst short throw on mine, and for me, was an improvement. I did not have a problem with the stock shifter, and if I get another manual C4, I very well may leave it alone but, at the same time, I appreciate the feel of a short throw and how it added a certain amount of character to the direction/theme I was headed with my car.

I think you are onto something with the stock shifter throw, but with some of the slopiness/extra play removed. I bet Bill would be able to help someone out with that if that is what they wanted. I really like the direct, mechanical, click/clack attributes of the Hurst. I honestly did not see or feel an increase in effort, but I am sure back to back drives with a stock car would be noticeable.

Tom400CFI

I agree with this 100%. Everyone (including myself) thinks that the time elapsed during a shift is in the shift....but it's not; it's mostly in the clutch pedal pump. Actually moving the lever from point A to point B takes very, very little time.

QCVette

I have had both stock shifters (good and bad ones) and aftermarket ones.

I tend to agree that the shortest length shift is not my top priority either.

Perhaps on a dedicated 1/4 mile car there is a slight improvement with a short throw, but for most people it doesn't really make it quicker.

What I do like about the aftermarket and some short throw shifters is that they are more precise. It is easy to find the right gear quickly. On some shifters the gates are vague and not easily guided into the gear slot.

Decades ago the stock shifters were horrible. There were some stock Muncie shifters that it was tough just finding the right gear, and some of them were body mounted instead of transmission mounted so when the engine was under load and torqued over some the linkage would bind up making it even tougher. On those cars an aftermarket shifter like Hurst's Competition Plus built a reputation for not only a shorter throw, but more precise shifting that remained workable under load.

Many of the current performance car shifters are really pretty good even if they are not very short throws.

On my C5 I have had stock shifters and an MGW. The MGW is very short and it is very precise, but the effort went way up. It was actually hard to put in gear and pull it all the way left to reach 1st. It was also very "notchy". Several times I unintentionally got 3rd. Although it was shorter, I preferred the stock shifter. (Note that the C5 (and up) transmissions have a spring loaded detent that can be shimmed to lessen the effort required. Look up Anti-Venom mod.) I did the mod and it is much nicer now, but the shorter stroke on that MGW doesn't really add to the ease of shifting or shifting quickly. It does make it feel different and I like that feel when it is working right.

Just my $0.02

856SPEED

Tom400CFI

Oh, I totally hear you. I BUILT MY OWN SHIFTER for my wife's CTS-V, and integrated a "short shift" lever into my assy. And it does "feel" great; 1000x better than the stocker did (which was similar to stirring cold molasses with a wooden spoon). I dramatically improved the daily driving experience of the car having a precise feeling shifter. But fast shifting, it is not.

What I'd be looking for in the C4 is the precise, tight feel provided by a good aftermarket shifter (remove all the rubber bushings, plastic pivots etc) but still retain the geometry of stock and the shifter height/positioning -because that part is already good (in the C4). To me, that would be ideal; it would greatly enhance the DD experience to row a nice, tight, precise shifter, but still maintain leverage and steering wheel proximity for track days -both drag and road course.

What was interesting about the article (to me) is that it's the first time I've seen it recognized that a "short shifter" isn't necessarily a faster shifter. Everyone (including me) assumes that it is b/c it's...well, shorter, and it's aftermarket and obviously better made...but shift elapsed time isn't in the shift lever...it's in the clutch pump which is actually two successive motions in opposite directions, each motion being 10+ inches long.

856SPEED

PLRX

I have the B&M shifter in The Ghost, and it the best damn shifter I've ever had. Better than the C7Z06. It is PRECISE

JrRifleCoach

The Hinson in my Z is a great addon. The additional effort required makes upshifts smooth and thoughtless. The MGW that came with the car was not very easy to adjust to. If the call comes to reinstall the stock I can deal with it.

Paul Workman

VERY interesting thread!

My wife's Z has the Hurst short-throw - and comments about being (how do I describe it...) precise - as in no question about what gear it's going into, are SPOT-ON. I especially notice (and appreciate) the Hurst while involved in frequent, spirited shifting during romps in the twisties: really emphasized by the 410s vs. the stock 345s in my Z.

HARSH vs. MUSHY: That is prolly as close as I can get to summarizing my experience going back and forth between the Hurst and the stock shifter. I'm not 100% pleased with either shifter: more like 60/40% between the Hurst and the stock, respectfully. I'd like to "fees" some others, hear some more stock vs. (other than Hurst) aftermarket shifters.

I hear good things about Bill Boudreau's modified shifter, and the B&M too. My ZF needs to pay a visit to Bill anyway (5th gear synco going bad). So, that would be and ideal time to upgrade the shifter (to his version).

Yer thought R welcome!

856SPEED

I run the B&M as stated; I love it; HOWEVER; It's not for everyone. The shifts are as precise as I could ever hope for. The travel is short. For me, it's the ultimate high performance manual "feel." I could not imagine going back to OEM travel.

Having said that, it does require more "effort" and some would describe it as "notchy." If you have a female driver, they may not be able to pull it off w/o too much effort.

Some say they like the Hurst as a compromise; but for me and this car's personality (all about performance) the B&M was a great upgrade.
I don't know how you would miss a gear in this thing.

cv67

Always preferred short shifters just for feel, powershifting days were over a long time ago hate broken parts.
The older 4 spds and mechanical linkages were foolproof for that.

Anyone drive an older Mopar with that stupid long handle? Talk about a long throw

GREGGPENN

Tom,
Please consider contacting the ZFDoc (Bill) directly. That's who I bought my STS from. AFAIK, there are 3 iterations: His, Hurst, & B&M. Since Bill is the ZF transmission expert, he has seen, used, and sold all three options. Before his version, he sought to make the shortest shifter while maintaining proper geometry...as you mention.

I have not driven a B&M car so I cannot provide feedback. I understand the effort to shift can be high. Because it's noted (above) that it might be difficult for a female, that MIGHT be an indication of what people mean. Bill thought the Hurst could be better/shorter.

From what he told me (circa 2009) was he built a few prototypes to experiment with feel/geometry. He decided on a unit that mildly alters the lower pivot geometry -- in addition to the upper lever length. In doing so, he believes his is the best solution. It's the shifter I own and can't say enough good things about it. After running it, stock cars remind me of the "Fink" cartoons where the driver reaches well up into the air to shift his "HotRod". IOW, stock shifters feel "wrong" to me now. And it didn't take long to feel that way.

Whether a short-throw can improve shift times would need to be measured by Olympic-caliber minutia timers that could measure .0001 second differences. OK...maybe only .001 The movement of a shift is so short (compared to time down the track), I'd guess it really is hard to measure benefits.

If you look past what you can measure, I disagree with the article...in the sense that I wouldn't feel "right" with a long shifter. Not unless I was sitting on a bench seat in an older pickup truck anyway!

1985 Corvette

I've considered sending my linkage to Bill for a rebuild and shorten. The stock shifter does feel a bit long but that's partly because I'm spoiled seeing the new Camaro's shifter setup which, apparently, is better than the C7's.

Tom400CFI

I hear you (greggpenn) about talking to Bill...I should do that.

There is a difference between what "feels good" and what works best. I totally agree that for general street driving, the short shifter "feels great". WAY better than a stock shifter typically feels. I've had a lot of 'em; B&M in a Trans Am, a Pro 5.0 in a Camaro, and I built one for my wife's Stealth RT/TT and for her current Caddy. My C6 sort of came with a "short shifter" (the shift lever was literally short, compared to most)...and back then, I thought it was cool as hell that the stock car came with such a short shifter. Problem was...it didn't shift. Not enough leverage and I'd miss gears at the drag track. Same w/the Caddy. And the TA and Camaro They felt great in normal driving...but when it was "go time", when I really wanted to shift FAST...they let me down.

When you're on the track, the cockpit becomes a "work place", and the better the placement of the controls...and the better the controls execute your inputs...the better you'll do on the track. While the C4's stock stick IS tall (and "dorky" in that regard), it is located just off the steering wheel only about 2" away in 1st gear, which is where you want it (close), IMO. Note that most racing cars position the shift lever VERY close to the steering wheel...even if that means that it's quite tall.






I'm not saying that one is better than the other; it totally depends on what you're doing w/your car. For ME, I'd like the leverage and positioning of the stock lever, but with the precise linkage of an aftermarket. I may have to build my own again. IDK....


.

GREGGPENN

I drive with my left hand and leave my right on the shifter. Probably a product of driving sticks for years and years and years. White-knuckle snow is about the only time you'll see me with both hands glued....but not in the Vette!

Turns too for hand-over wheel spinning -- between shifts.

If I ever raced the quarter..and above 100mph....that might qualify? But seems like the last shift might come while still down at "normal" hwy speeds?

I like the short throw because It's been years since I missed a shift. To me, it's easier to "lax" and let the clutch out a hair too soon with a longer throw. Guess that means my attention span warrants saving those couple milliseconds! So.....I'm saying functionality IS a reason I like mine better for daily driving.

The only thing I have in common with the race driver (pictured above), is we both use those DARK shades to sneak in a nap at the lights!

Klondike

I put a B&M in my LT4 also and it is a huge improvement over that "Kenworth like" stock shifter. The stock one had such a long throw that my knuckles would sometimes scrape the radio. Way too long and not much feel between the gates (too floppy). The B&M is a lot shorter throw and the gates are very well defined for feel and accuracy.
My old 93 Mustang work car has very nice throw and feel but it was positioned too far forward to be comfortable. Being a little 4 cyl. I had to do a lot of shifting too. So, I built a block that bolted in-between the shifter stub sticking up out of the transmission and the handle that tilted the handle and moved it back to a more comfortable position and still has the stock feel.

84 4+3

Got to sit in a c7 and zl1 at the Philly auto show Saturday and just clutched in and shifted a little with the zl1. (Both c7s were auto) My impression of the zl1 was it was seemingly short as in the shifter was tight to the consol but muscle memory told me it wasn't that short. Shorter than the 4+3 sure but not this huge difference. Little more effort required and the gates felt sort of notchy just clicking it around. I never missed the gear I wanted but I still had to do that little wiggle like I do on the vette. That could change while driving though. I then went home and did the same in the vette (off just clicking around) and it felt similar. Not as notchy but quite a bit looser. Throw was longer but I found if I held the shifter around the base instead of the top it was comparable albeit still longer. I think the camaro shifter felt better for that car as did the light clutch. Funny thing is one of the kids that got out before me said how heavy it was. After I pushed it in I giggled. (The vette gets tiring after a couple hours of traffic but it is pretty darn heavy. Not gonna complain though.) Overall the camaro felt comparably as good as the vette with its respective shifter throw. As in it suited the style the car was going for. I will say down shifts on the camaro were easier to find then the vette though. It doesn't like going the other way I've found. Totally objective opinion.

As an aside, I pretty much drive with only my left index finger on the wheel unless I'm pulling into a parking spot. The notch from it on my truck confirms this. Right at the spoke at 9 o'clock.