Rant at the geriatric corvette owners that ruined the z51 package
03-09-2018, 09:09 PM
#21
Viper isn't dead due to poor sales, it's dead due to government regulations. Viper side airbags are not compliant with the new rules, and the coat to go through all the required testing and redesign wasn't worth it. Make no mistake, Viper will be back, likely on a platform shared with other FCA brands, like Alfa, Maserati, and Ferrari.
The average sports car buyer isn't a driving enthusiast, they're an egomaniac that wants a piece of jewelry. That's why there are no drivers cars left, only the STI and a ton of fakes. But the automotive press is even worse, anything that is actually a drivers car and challenges you instead of coddles you is derided as being "unpredictable" and "poorly mannered".
There's not really any new cars worth buying. The auto industry hit its peak for cars and is now on the downhill slide. It's sad.
The average sports car buyer isn't a driving enthusiast, they're an egomaniac that wants a piece of jewelry. That's why there are no drivers cars left, only the STI and a ton of fakes. But the automotive press is even worse, anything that is actually a drivers car and challenges you instead of coddles you is derided as being "unpredictable" and "poorly mannered".
There's not really any new cars worth buying. The auto industry hit its peak for cars and is now on the downhill slide. It's sad.
You are right on the money.
People have been talking about streetspeed717. I just seen a vid of his 1,000+hp car.
It blows his mind.
my c4 feels the same fun factor / manners or even more still with only 700na, based on his video they cat about the same.His car 700 is totally a cruiser that the speedo moves fast in, but that is it unless you crash of course.
My point is he has over 1,000hp to feel like the car is insane and act like a wild car.
500hp in old muscles cars was nuts, because everything sucked on them and they had small tires, but it made a hell of a ride.
I have zero interest in driving a luxury sedan feeling high priced "sports car".
I really want a newer version, but not bad enough to do it.
Last edited by pologreen1; 03-09-2018 at 09:11 PM.
03-09-2018, 09:35 PM
#22
Viper isn't dead due to poor sales, it's dead due to government regulations. Viper side airbags are not compliant with the new rules, and the coat to go through all the required testing and redesign wasn't worth it. Make no mistake, Viper will be back, likely on a platform shared with other FCA brands, like Alfa, Maserati, and Ferrari.
So, regardless of the cost for the new crash standards, the Viper was dead already. Which is sad. I was in one and it was one of those "I'll never forget" moments....
03-09-2018, 10:58 PM
#23
Race Director
Actually, poor sales are what killed the Viper. The last year of production was under 600 units - a far cry from the few thousand sold in the early years. With such low numbers, it was becoming impractical for keep the line running, let alone what those new side airbags would cost.
So, regardless of the cost for the new crash standards, the Viper was dead already. Which is sad. I was in one and it was one of those "I'll never forget" moments....
So, regardless of the cost for the new crash standards, the Viper was dead already. Which is sad. I was in one and it was one of those "I'll never forget" moments....
Viper is on the "to buy" list.
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427muscle (03-11-2018)
03-09-2018, 11:12 PM
#24
Team Owner
Manufacturers will make what sells. Most will option things if there's enough of a market for it (meaning suspension upgrades etc.).
That's also why there are aftermarket companies selling products for modifying cars. Either get it as you want or make it what you want.
having been hurt by a joy-riding kid T-boning my car gave me a new perspective on cars and how they drive, I'll take a softer suspension any day over spending it flat on my back in pain from too rough a suspension. That makes me neither good nor bad, it makes me a customer of a sweet handling car that loves curves (especially with my upgrades) and doesn't shake the fillings out of my head.
Not happy with that you have: trade it for something different or mod it to be what you want. Both are viable options.
That's also why there are aftermarket companies selling products for modifying cars. Either get it as you want or make it what you want.
having been hurt by a joy-riding kid T-boning my car gave me a new perspective on cars and how they drive, I'll take a softer suspension any day over spending it flat on my back in pain from too rough a suspension. That makes me neither good nor bad, it makes me a customer of a sweet handling car that loves curves (especially with my upgrades) and doesn't shake the fillings out of my head.
Not happy with that you have: trade it for something different or mod it to be what you want. Both are viable options.
It's all compromise. It's just like gun sights. Some like this brand, some like that. I wish my guns didn't come with any sights or at least, cheap crap sights. That way, it doesn't waste my money paying for sights I don't want.
Way I look at it, you build the car for what you want it to do mostly not just a one off
03-09-2018, 11:20 PM
#25
Race Director
This is not sarcasm. You seriously should be a writer. That was the best tidbit I have read in a long time.
You are right on the money.
People have been talking about streetspeed717. I just seen a vid of his 1,000+hp car.
It blows his mind. my c4 feels the same fun factor / manners or even more still with only 700na, based on his video they cat about the same.
His car 700 is totally a cruiser that the speedo moves fast in, but that is it unless you crash of course.
My point is he has over 1,000hp to feel like the car is insane and act like a wild car.
500hp in old muscles cars was nuts, because everything sucked on them and they had small tires, but it made a hell of a ride.
I have zero interest in driving a luxury sedan feeling high priced "sports car".
I really want a newer version, but not bad enough to do it.
You are right on the money.
People have been talking about streetspeed717. I just seen a vid of his 1,000+hp car.
It blows his mind.
my c4 feels the same fun factor / manners or even more still with only 700na, based on his video they cat about the same.His car 700 is totally a cruiser that the speedo moves fast in, but that is it unless you crash of course.
My point is he has over 1,000hp to feel like the car is insane and act like a wild car.
500hp in old muscles cars was nuts, because everything sucked on them and they had small tires, but it made a hell of a ride.
I have zero interest in driving a luxury sedan feeling high priced "sports car".
I really want a newer version, but not bad enough to do it.
The thing with street speed... like him or not he's an entertainer. He goes out there and produces content. Whether it's accurate or not... that doesn't matter. I've driven a stock C7Z, and anyone who tells you it isn' wild is lying to you. Put it on a short track and you'll be floored by how quickly distances disappear. It's scary fast, but the car is very easy to drive with all its electronics and massive grip. It honestly was not actually fun to drive, ingot out and was like "**** that's fast" but came away feeling like I just rode in a rollercoaster, not drove a car. It's mind bendingly fast... But there's no real thrill of control. He didn't need 1000hp to get a feel from the car, he is a guy with a bunch of money that knew a 1000hp car would get views. If you put him in the passenger seat of a stock c7z with a good driver he would **** himself on a track. If you put him in the driver seat he would find the sturdiness of a wall.
03-09-2018, 11:20 PM
#26
Team Owner
His car 700 is totally a cruiser that the speedo moves fast in, but that is it unless you crash of course.
500hp in old muscles cars was nuts, because everything sucked on them and they had small tires, but it made a hell of a ride.
I really want a newer version, but not bad enough to do it.
500hp in old muscles cars was nuts, because everything sucked on them and they had small tires, but it made a hell of a ride.
I really want a newer version, but not bad enough to do it.
If a new 500HP car can do it all in comfort, why would I want the discomfort? If I want an 11 second car and I was offered it in an uncomfortable car or a comfortable one, I know I will choose comfort all things equal.
That is my problem too. On principle, I can't justify the cost with the amount of driving and what I put into it and will get out of selling it.
03-10-2018, 12:05 AM
#27
Viper isn't dead due to poor sales, it's dead due to government regulations. Viper side airbags are not compliant with the new rules, and the coat to go through all the required testing and redesign wasn't worth it. Make no mistake, Viper will be back, likely on a platform shared with other FCA brands, like Alfa, Maserati, and Ferrari.
The average sports car buyer isn't a driving enthusiast, they're an egomaniac that wants a piece of jewelry. That's why there are no drivers cars left, only the STI and a ton of fakes. But the automotive press is even worse, anything that is actually a drivers car and challenges you instead of coddles you is derided as being "unpredictable" and "poorly mannered".
There's not really any new cars worth buying. The auto industry hit its peak for cars and is now on the downhill slide. It's sad.
The average sports car buyer isn't a driving enthusiast, they're an egomaniac that wants a piece of jewelry. That's why there are no drivers cars left, only the STI and a ton of fakes. But the automotive press is even worse, anything that is actually a drivers car and challenges you instead of coddles you is derided as being "unpredictable" and "poorly mannered".
There's not really any new cars worth buying. The auto industry hit its peak for cars and is now on the downhill slide. It's sad.
my understanding is that the new lotus is a driver focused car. less femanine looking than the exige too.
03-10-2018, 12:07 AM
#28
Race Director
I get the comfort thing. Thats why the Challemger blows the Mustamg amd Camaro away in sales, it does enough for any drover looming at them, and its by far more comfortable due to its size and weight and tuning.
The issue for me with new cars isn't price (ok, I do think they'e all more expensive than they should be, but it' not a HUGE seal.to me). It's that the cars AREN'T AS GOOD as the older ones. If you offered me a 370z or a new infiniti whatever, I'd take the z every time. I'd have an e92 m3 over a new m4, even at the same price. The older cars just have more character, more feel, more feedback, and are just better to drive.
I'm sure the m4 is faster, laps the ring quicker, has more tech, and can ride over a pothole better, but these newer cars that try to be everything end up as these soulless shells, they're chameleons that blend in everywhere and make no lasting impact on you because there's no substance to them.
That's why used sports cars are seeing big gains in prices, they'e just better sports cars than the new stuff. The stuff makes a great trinket, and has a brochure full of things to spout off, but they lack any real character or substance.
The issue for me with new cars isn't price (ok, I do think they'e all more expensive than they should be, but it' not a HUGE seal.to me). It's that the cars AREN'T AS GOOD as the older ones. If you offered me a 370z or a new infiniti whatever, I'd take the z every time. I'd have an e92 m3 over a new m4, even at the same price. The older cars just have more character, more feel, more feedback, and are just better to drive.
I'm sure the m4 is faster, laps the ring quicker, has more tech, and can ride over a pothole better, but these newer cars that try to be everything end up as these soulless shells, they're chameleons that blend in everywhere and make no lasting impact on you because there's no substance to them.
That's why used sports cars are seeing big gains in prices, they'e just better sports cars than the new stuff. The stuff makes a great trinket, and has a brochure full of things to spout off, but they lack any real character or substance.
03-10-2018, 02:12 AM
#30
Safety Car
My ladyfriend and I drove two 85's when deciding what we wanted on our new 85 Corvette. The first car was a 4+3, Std suspension that I drove and she didn't because she hadn't learned to drive a stick yet. The second was an automatic, that she drove with the salesman, I rode in the luggage compartment. As soon as she was underway, I detected the harsher suspension. I asked the salesman "does this car have Z51?" "Yes, all our automatics are Z51". When I drove the same car, I liked the faster steering ratio, and that's why we selected Z51 for "our" car. (the one I still own today).
The only stick shift cars my GF had driven before we met were wimp cars. She hated always stalling them. She fell in love with my 4 speed '64 GTO! She was amazed! "This thing won't stall!" I knew I'd found a keeper (and I'm not talking about the car)!
03-10-2018, 02:46 AM
#31
Team Owner
The issue for me with new cars isn't price (ok, I do think they'e all more expensive than they should be, but it' not a HUGE seal.to me). It's that the cars AREN'T AS GOOD as the older ones. If you offered me a 370z or a new infiniti whatever, I'd take the z every time. I'd have an e92 m3 over a new m4, even at the same price. The older cars just have more character, more feel, more feedback, and are just better to drive.
From my observation, Grandpa will never really understand Dad's generation and Dad will never really understand my generation and I will never understand my kid's generation and so on?
03-10-2018, 09:06 AM
#32
Le Mans Master
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The easy listening golf course types are the people with money. The number of people that track their corvettes in a way that utilizes the stock suspension (therefore making z51 useful) is so small it might as well be zero. The overwhelming majority of corvette owners, never push their cars anywhere even close to the limits of adhesion, regardless of what suspension is on the car, but they all hit potholes.
I was shocked to find out that nearly half of ZR-1 owners had NEVER hit the 7100 rpm rev limiter, AND a large percentage of those people seldom if ever revved to 6000!
A local Corvette dealer put on a track day at a local autobahn track. The public was invited to drive their Corvettes on the track - follow the leader style. The pace car was only doing about 55 mph.
I was behind a new C7 Z06, and the dude was braking down to 35 mph to go around the curves! And, I found myself asking: What the hell did you buy a Z06 for anyway!!!?
Well, ppl buy a Corvette for many reasons - and not all "geriatric" drivers putz around in their Corvettes... I may be an ol' fardt, and you'll use up some brakes following me in the twisties, but the reason for brakes will have more to do with staying within the limits of tire adhesion than anything else!
03-10-2018, 11:53 AM
#33
Race Director
Question. If we could poll the previous generation, assuming they cared about a car for more than "point A to point B", that is, what would they say? From a company that does research on music, they mentioned that it seems like when a person graduates from high school, plus or minus 10 years, their music period is mostly set. IOW, I graduate in 1990 so my tastes lie from 1980 to 2000 for the most part. Anyone think that is how we are also as people? Do we think that the best time for anything is also around a given range?
From my observation, Grandpa will never really understand Dad's generation and Dad will never really understand my generation and I will never understand my kid's generation and so on?
From my observation, Grandpa will never really understand Dad's generation and Dad will never really understand my generation and I will never understand my kid's generation and so on?
03-10-2018, 12:11 PM
#34
Question. If we could poll the previous generation, assuming they cared about a car for more than "point A to point B", that is, what would they say? From a company that does research on music, they mentioned that it seems like when a person graduates from high school, plus or minus 10 years, their music period is mostly set. IOW, I graduate in 1990 so my tastes lie from 1980 to 2000 for the most part. Anyone think that is how we are also as people? Do we think that the best time for anything is also around a given range?
From my observation, Grandpa will never really understand Dad's generation and Dad will never really understand my generation and I will never understand my kid's generation and so on?
From my observation, Grandpa will never really understand Dad's generation and Dad will never really understand my generation and I will never understand my kid's generation and so on?
Ak this is my belief too. Just based on what i see over and over.
Personally im 40 and i hit the loint in my life at the end of my 30's where i said "life is too short" and then i bought the car i wanted in my school years. c4 vette. the other cars i want are from the same era. im struggling with buying a c5.
03-10-2018, 12:55 PM
#35
Burning Brakes
Just my two cents but there were options. I have the ZO7 option on my 1992 and it does ride stiff but I love it. When spring rates are 50% higher than on base coupes and 25% higher than the ZR-1 in addition to other enhancements that were made you have to think it will ride a bit hard. Of course this is why less than 4% were ordered with this option so GM must have done their homework. That and the fact that it was the most expensive option at $2045 in 1992.
03-10-2018, 01:13 PM
#36
Team Owner
Pro Mechanic
I agree. Not C4, but when I got my '06 C6, there were many things that I didn't like about it. Among those?
*Characterless, muted exhaust (too quiet)
*Bland steering
*Soft ride...and I did get the Z51 pakage
Three years later, I bought my wife an '05 CTS-V, which we still have. The engine sounds better, louder, and more interesting.
The suspension feels more taut and "there" for you.
The car is FUN to drive
The steering is super direct and feels good.
The Caddy is a better Corvette than the Z51 C6 Corvette was....that's f-ed up.
You hit the nail on the head. Directly on the head. I'm a car guy. I like muscle cars, sports cars, domestic cars, foreign cars, antique cars, classic cars...I love cars! But not new cars. I just can't get myself to GAF about virtually any new car that comes out. I used to SCOURE every car mag I could get my hands on...cover to cover. Car mags (other than "Hot Rod"/GRMS, etc) are of little interest to me anymore. The most recent MT, was loaded with Crossovers...the feature article was on an upcoming Lexus crossover. Kenmoore's, Whirlpools, Maytag's, and LG's.....I don't give two **** about the latest crossover with lane departure warning and E-brake assist. Cars, even mega hp "sports cars" are robotic appliances. It sucks. 
.
*Characterless, muted exhaust (too quiet)
*Bland steering
*Soft ride...and I did get the Z51 pakage
Three years later, I bought my wife an '05 CTS-V, which we still have. The engine sounds better, louder, and more interesting.
The suspension feels more taut and "there" for you.
The car is FUN to drive
The steering is super direct and feels good.
The Caddy is a better Corvette than the Z51 C6 Corvette was....that's f-ed up.
.
Last edited by Tom400CFI; 03-10-2018 at 01:36 PM.
03-10-2018, 01:29 PM
#37
Team Owner
Pro Mechanic
I don't believe that is the case. *I* don't love the C7 b/c to me, it is a detached experience; you don't OWN it (a computer does), and it isolates you from the "mechanism", too much. I relished new tech, better performance, amenities/features etc. until I owned my C6 and all of the sudden it HIT me...the car sucked, as a sports/fun car. I'm not against "new"....I'm against cars the separate you from the experience.
03-10-2018, 01:31 PM
#38
Team Owner
Pro Mechanic
I have considered this, but I think it has less to do with that than the transition from analog to digital controls. In the late 00s and early 10s, cars transitioned from being analog machines to digital ones. Modern cars, all your inputs are routed through a computer. The car senses everything you g on and sets itself up for you. The driver involvement is gone, the car predicts what you need to either not crash or go faster, and makes that happen for you. You're no longer the driver, you'e just the person giving general direction to the machine.
03-10-2018, 01:33 PM
#39
Le Mans Master
The 05 CTS-V was purpose built, for sedan racing ,with limited options. It cost as more than a DeVille only came with a 6 speed so that by itself eliminated most of the " non drivers". Those people who want the most expensive models did want a clutch. That would change
03-10-2018, 01:40 PM
#40
Race Director
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Pretty sure GMs goal was to sell cars. So towards that goal they built cars that appealed to the largest group of buyers. Which to use your term were the geriatric buyers. Man, I love capitalism.
Guessing you just were bored in that arctic wasteland so you posted to pick a fight. It's cold here too high barely into the 60s so I'll leave the targa in when I head out in the non-z51 luxo-cruiser this afternoon.
Guessing you just were bored in that arctic wasteland so you posted to pick a fight. It's cold here too high barely into the 60s so I'll leave the targa in when I head out in the non-z51 luxo-cruiser this afternoon.