Why did the ZR-1 have to be heavier?
#81
Le Mans Master
OK. Maybe what I'm thinking are hard tops are just targas with body color covers as opposed to the black glass. Pity. Wish there were hard tops.
Not too bad. So basically a LT. But would it keep the L98 bottom torque characteristic and great sound? If so, then I would have a LT with bottom torque instead of the LTs higher rev. Sounds good to me. For the road I think bottom end torque is where the fun is at.
I need to recant my last estimate of power on that combo, though. When I typed that post, for some reason I was forgetting that the L98 heads probably don't flow quite as well as stock LT1 heads, and the L98 will have a little lower compression ratio. So let's bump that estimate down maybe 310chp. Sorry for my brain fart there. If others disagree with my estimates, I hope they'll chime in.
And all of these would be just bolt ons right? And idle stock?
I wonder why people complain about the L98 and rave about the LT1 and prefer LT1 cars then. Unless this is expensive or difficult to do, seem to me like a non brainer. Unless the person either likes the new styles which comes with the LT1 engine or maybe have plans to increase hp and starting at 300 hp is better.
OK. And [a stroker 396] would still idle stock and get me around 400chp? So basically late ZR-1 power in a lighter car.
All bolt ons? Bottom torque still there? L98 sound?
All bolt ons? Bottom torque still there? L98 sound?
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Zak2018 (11-08-2018)
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Zak2018 (11-08-2018)
#83
Team Owner
Pro Mechanic
*1000+ more usable RPM. The L98 is a fun ride...up to 4000-4500 RPM. That number...that spot on the tach comes up quick in lower gears and it feels limiting. Frustratingly so, IMO. You talked about "L98 sound". IMO, when you shift a stock L98 where you need to for max acceleration, you ear is left wanting -it feels/sounds like you're short shifting. If you don't look at the tach and just wind it out by ear...you end up spending a lot of time in "no man's land" where you're burning gas but not making any power.
*No penalty -you get 50 more hp, the same tq essentially, the aforementioned 1000+ more usable RPM....AND you get better fuel economy. What's not to like?
The looks would be about the only thing that I can think of.
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Zak2018 (11-08-2018)
#84
1. The LT1 actually makes more bottom end torque than the L98.
[img]http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...owertorque.jpg
2. All of the things Matthew is suggesting are bolt ons. Idle is defined (mostly) by the cam and tune
3. There is no difference in "sound" between an L98 and an LT1...or any other Gen I/II engine other than that sound which is created by the exhaust system and other engine changes (cam/compression). IOW, the intake doesn't define the sound. Any difference that you're talking about in and "L98 sound" is due to the L98's (single) exhaust system vs. the LT1's (dual) exhaust system. In any case where you're going for 300+hp, you'll ditch the L98's stock exhaust for something better and you'll no longer have the "L98 sound"...whatever that is.
[img]http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...owertorque.jpg
2. All of the things Matthew is suggesting are bolt ons. Idle is defined (mostly) by the cam and tune
3. There is no difference in "sound" between an L98 and an LT1...or any other Gen I/II engine other than that sound which is created by the exhaust system and other engine changes (cam/compression). IOW, the intake doesn't define the sound. Any difference that you're talking about in and "L98 sound" is due to the L98's (single) exhaust system vs. the LT1's (dual) exhaust system. In any case where you're going for 300+hp, you'll ditch the L98's stock exhaust for something better and you'll no longer have the "L98 sound"...whatever that is.
But thanks for clarifying the torque issue.
#85
#86
So Tom really addressed the torque thing. With a short-runner intake you'll have the same off-idle torque, but a flatter torque curve and a wider rpm range to use, and no hump in torque at 3000rpm like with the TPI intake. Overall it's a better set of characteristics in every way.
I need to recant my last estimate of power on that combo, though. When I typed that post, for some reason I was forgetting that the L98 heads probably don't flow quite as well as stock LT1 heads, and the L98 will have a little lower compression ratio. So let's bump that estimate down maybe 310chp. Sorry for my brain fart there. If others disagree with my estimates, I hope they'll chime in.
I need to recant my last estimate of power on that combo, though. When I typed that post, for some reason I was forgetting that the L98 heads probably don't flow quite as well as stock LT1 heads, and the L98 will have a little lower compression ratio. So let's bump that estimate down maybe 310chp. Sorry for my brain fart there. If others disagree with my estimates, I hope they'll chime in.
Unless I find a very nice 1990 ZR-1 for a great price, full service history etc.
#87
Regarding this comment, I'll add to what Matthew said:
*1000+ more usable RPM. The L98 is a fun ride...up to 4000-4500 RPM. That number...that spot on the tach comes up quick in lower gears and it feels limiting. Frustratingly so, IMO. You talked about "L98 sound". IMO, when you shift a stock L98 where you need to for max acceleration, you ear is left wanting -it feels/sounds like you're short shifting. If you don't look at the tach and just wind it out by ear...you end up spending a lot of time in "no man's land" where you're burning gas but not making any power.
*No penalty -you get 50 more hp, the same tq essentially, the aforementioned 1000+ more usable RPM....AND you get better fuel economy. What's not to like?
The looks would be about the only thing that I can think of.
*1000+ more usable RPM. The L98 is a fun ride...up to 4000-4500 RPM. That number...that spot on the tach comes up quick in lower gears and it feels limiting. Frustratingly so, IMO. You talked about "L98 sound". IMO, when you shift a stock L98 where you need to for max acceleration, you ear is left wanting -it feels/sounds like you're short shifting. If you don't look at the tach and just wind it out by ear...you end up spending a lot of time in "no man's land" where you're burning gas but not making any power.
*No penalty -you get 50 more hp, the same tq essentially, the aforementioned 1000+ more usable RPM....AND you get better fuel economy. What's not to like?
The looks would be about the only thing that I can think of.
#88
Team Owner
Pro Mechanic
People do this constantly and IDK why. We are seeing more of this behavior than ever, in politics right now; the facts are clear, but someone states a falsehood as fact. WTF? IT sucks b/c it does nothing but muddy waters that could and should be clear. Why do people think this about the L98? I think two reasons;
1. When the L98 came out, tq was a dramatic increase over any small block before it -especially at low - mid RPM. No carb'ed SBC before had anywhere near the tq that the L98 had in '85. So it made an impression on people that may have "stuck".
2. Torque is all the L98 has got to offer! So if you own one, that is what you focus on and talk about. 230-245hp @ 4000-4500 isn't what you talk about. So people talk about the "tork monster TPI", instead. Both the LT1 and the L98 made ~340 tq peak, so...
YES. How to do it? IDK.
I like the 400 for the bore and cost. Matthew likes the 396 b/c he's in a different situation; he is limited by the "LTx" platform to a 4.0" bore so to get the cubes, he has no choice but to go w/a longer stroke. That works, and works awesome. But if you buy a '90, a 400 is nearly a bolt in. The one hang up is the flywheel which you can have a machine shop fix the flange and balance to run on a 400.
It all boils down to what's more available and cheaper in your area; a 400 block? Or a 3.85" crank?
1. When the L98 came out, tq was a dramatic increase over any small block before it -especially at low - mid RPM. No carb'ed SBC before had anywhere near the tq that the L98 had in '85. So it made an impression on people that may have "stuck".
2. Torque is all the L98 has got to offer! So if you own one, that is what you focus on and talk about. 230-245hp @ 4000-4500 isn't what you talk about. So people talk about the "tork monster TPI", instead. Both the LT1 and the L98 made ~340 tq peak, so...
It all boils down to what's more available and cheaper in your area; a 400 block? Or a 3.85" crank?
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Zak2018 (11-09-2018)
#89
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Dec 2005
Location: Where Woke Goes to Die
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And by the time you do all this work, you could have easily bought a ZR-1 with headers on it (400hp) for nthe same money or less...
Heres the deal of the century....
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-Chevro...2:pf:0&vxp=mtr
Heres the deal of the century....
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-Chevro...2:pf:0&vxp=mtr
Last edited by 81c3; 11-08-2018 at 11:26 AM.
#90
And by the time you do all this work, you could have easily bought a ZR-1 with headers on it (400hp) for nthe same money or less...
Heres the deal of the century....
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-Chevro...2:pf:0&vxp=mtr
Heres the deal of the century....
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-Chevro...2:pf:0&vxp=mtr
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81c3 (11-08-2018)
#91
Race Director
I'm interested in the 93. Can't remember the name right now, but sounds like it is the ICM version of the LT5? At least I think that is why it's stalling.
Last edited by 1993C4LT1; 11-08-2018 at 01:31 PM.
#92
And by the time you do all this work, you could have easily bought a ZR-1 with headers on it (400hp) for nthe same money or less...
Heres the deal of the century....
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-Chevro...2:pf:0&vxp=mtr
Heres the deal of the century....
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-Chevro...2:pf:0&vxp=mtr
You probably said the same thing when it sold at BJ in sept of 17 for the same hammer price of 14,000. 15,400 after buyers fees.
#93
#94
Primary fuel pump is probably dead. Secondary pump runs for a bit at start up and then turns off. An easy cheap fix, but the car probably has a few other needs as well.
#95
Le Mans Master
Ok, so between the 98 with better intake, very mild cam, and maybe headers you suggested and the L98 built as a 396 (or is it 383?) and the 400 engine that Tom mentioned earlier , which one would be the easiest to do? Cheapest? And which would be preferable and why? It seems one of these 3 options might be the best way to get what I want, which is a 1990 C4.
As for which option makes more economic sense, only you can answer that one. Of course the cam/intake/headers on a stock L98 is a much cheaper option than a ZR1. As for the big-inch engines, it depends a lot on how much labor you can put in yourself. If you buy a clean L98/6sp C4 for, say, $6k and then spend another $2-3k for a big-inch engine and do the work yourself, your still in it for a lot cheaper than a ZR1. If you have to pay someone else to do it all and then you might quickly get up to the cost of buying a nice ZR1.
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Zak2018 (11-09-2018)
#96
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Dec 2005
Location: Where Woke Goes to Die
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I more than likely would have if Id seen it.... Why, do you consider it a poor deal for a 93 ZR-1 in that particular color combination?
Last edited by 81c3; 11-08-2018 at 06:20 PM.
#97
People do this constantly and IDK why. We are seeing more of this behavior than ever, in politics right now; the facts are clear, but someone states a falsehood as fact. WTF? IT sucks b/c it does nothing but muddy waters that could and should be clear. Why do people think this about the L98? I think two reasons;
1. When the L98 came out, tq was a dramatic increase over any small block before it -especially at low - mid RPM. No carb'ed SBC before had anywhere near the tq that the L98 had in '85. So it made an impression on people that may have "stuck".
2. Torque is all the L98 has got to offer! So if you own one, that is what you focus on and talk about. 230-245hp @ 4000-4500 isn't what you talk about. So people talk about the "tork monster TPI", instead. Both the LT1 and the L98 made ~340 tq peak, so...
1. When the L98 came out, tq was a dramatic increase over any small block before it -especially at low - mid RPM. No carb'ed SBC before had anywhere near the tq that the L98 had in '85. So it made an impression on people that may have "stuck".
2. Torque is all the L98 has got to offer! So if you own one, that is what you focus on and talk about. 230-245hp @ 4000-4500 isn't what you talk about. So people talk about the "tork monster TPI", instead. Both the LT1 and the L98 made ~340 tq peak, so...
How about two pieces of metal on each side in between the targa top, connecting the frame? Then fix the top on top of that?
I like the 400 for the bore and cost. Matthew likes the 396 b/c he's in a different situation; he is limited by the "LTx" platform to a 4.0" bore so to get the cubes, he has no choice but to go w/a longer stroke. That works, and works awesome. But if you buy a '90, a 400 is nearly a bolt in. The one hang up is the flywheel which you can have a machine shop fix the flange and balance to run on a 400.
It all boils down to what's more available and cheaper in your area; a 400 block? Or a 3.85" crank?
It all boils down to what's more available and cheaper in your area; a 400 block? Or a 3.85" crank?
#98
The 350 with intake, cam, and headers is easier and cheaper by quite a bit, but less powerful. Either the stroker kit or the 400 engine will provide significantly more power for the same idle quality. I honestly don't know enough about the 400 option to advise. I think you have to drill two cooling passages in the heads to make the 400 block work with them, too, due to the siamesed water jackets. Tom can probably confirm that (or not). I do know more cubic inches for the same size/weight engine is pretty much always better. One other thing I don't know about on an earlier L98 car is how much tuning the ECM would need for the bigger engines. I'm not really sure.
As for which option makes more economic sense, only you can answer that one. Of course the cam/intake/headers on a stock L98 is a much cheaper option than a ZR1. As for the big-inch engines, it depends a lot on how much labor you can put in yourself. If you buy a clean L98/6sp C4 for, say, $6k and then spend another $2-3k for a big-inch engine and do the work yourself, your still in it for a lot cheaper than a ZR1. If you have to pay someone else to do it all and then you might quickly get up to the cost of buying a nice ZR1.
As for which option makes more economic sense, only you can answer that one. Of course the cam/intake/headers on a stock L98 is a much cheaper option than a ZR1. As for the big-inch engines, it depends a lot on how much labor you can put in yourself. If you buy a clean L98/6sp C4 for, say, $6k and then spend another $2-3k for a big-inch engine and do the work yourself, your still in it for a lot cheaper than a ZR1. If you have to pay someone else to do it all and then you might quickly get up to the cost of buying a nice ZR1.
Because I think I would be able to do the 350 with intake, cam, and headers myself. But I'm not a mechanic. So the more complex stroker project I might have to get help. With the 400 it seems I definitely would need to pay somebody.
#99
Thanks. Something is telling me I would probably just do the 350 with intake, cam, and headers etc and be happy with the 310chp. Or just buy a ZR-1 if I can find one in good condition and for a good price. If it gets too complicated to do and expensive, given everybody is saying the ZR-1 is reliable, despite the gamble if it does break, it would probably still make more sense to go for the ZR-1.Before spending a lot of money and time in modifying the engine too much etc. As long as I can find a cheap enough ZR-1 and in good condition.
Because I think I would be able to do the 350 with intake, cam, and headers myself. But I'm not a mechanic. So the more complex stroker project I might have to get help. With the 400 it seems I definitely would need to pay somebody.
Because I think I would be able to do the 350 with intake, cam, and headers myself. But I'm not a mechanic. So the more complex stroker project I might have to get help. With the 400 it seems I definitely would need to pay somebody.
Someone posted a link here the other day of a crate 420chp 350. The factory is now offering a bolt on built motor, so they are decades late to the party, but not as many people wrench anymore either, and nobody is happy saying they have 250hp these days in a "sports / performance car" Of course wiht this combo or any that improves HP you need to consider rear gear and trans combos. More hp equal lower gears to make it happen based on physics. Unless you built an awesome hybrid intake combining the lt1 with the l98 of course.
Last edited by pologreen1; 11-09-2018 at 08:37 AM.
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Zak2018 (11-09-2018)
#100
Le Mans Master
Or you could do a good a 350 with a good set of heads, cam, headers, open exhaust, 1;6 rr's and use the shorter intake platform of the lt1 style and make 425chp and still be streetable. This has been done for decades now and 10's of thousands of GM cars from the 89'-90's and back.
Someone posted a link here the other day of a crate 420chp 350. The factory is now offering a bolt on built motor, so they are decades late to the party, but not as many people wrench anymore either, and nobody is happy saying they have 250hp these days in a "sports / performance car" Of course wiht this combo or any that improves HP you need to consider rear gear and trans combos. More hp equal lower gears to make it happen based on physics. Unless you built an awesome hybrid intake combining the lt1 with the l98 of course.
Someone posted a link here the other day of a crate 420chp 350. The factory is now offering a bolt on built motor, so they are decades late to the party, but not as many people wrench anymore either, and nobody is happy saying they have 250hp these days in a "sports / performance car" Of course wiht this combo or any that improves HP you need to consider rear gear and trans combos. More hp equal lower gears to make it happen based on physics. Unless you built an awesome hybrid intake combining the lt1 with the l98 of course.
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Zak2018 (11-09-2018)