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2nd part, Actually, there is data that shows ABS hasn't increased driver safety. But none of that matters either. I never tried to claim that ABS is a threat to the general public's safety. If I did, please quote where I said that or anything like it, so that I can correct it. YOU said, Driver aids will never override driver intent. That ain't true and I used ABS as ONE example of how it most certainly can and does. You don't need to convince me that the average duff is better off with driving aids; most people aren't even really DRIVING their cars! OF course they need all the help they can get. Autonomous cars can't come soon enoguh b/c people in general, are already done driving.
Tom, the original point of the thread was of course to discuss the production hold-ups on the C8, which you started. But around post #26, it started to take a turn toward "technology will cause bad things to happen and these new cars are less safe!" It wasn't your posts, but rather drcook's and colo63sw's posts that really went in that direction:
Originally Posted by colo63sw
Good points. Auto makers are putting way too much into new cars, they seem to be driving (no pun intended) toward everyone being asleep at the wheel.
The see the downside to this take a look at the Boeing 737 MAX. It should be against the law to override driver inputs!
And from there we got the assertion that active steering correction would prevent us from swerving to hit a kid that runs into our path. Reality is that these active corrective controls are saving people's asses thousands of times more often than malfunctions of them are skinning them. BTW, this includes the MCAS system that has been implicated in the two Max8 crashes; one of the most common pilot errors is to stall the plane, especially in the landing pattern, and MCAS is designed to prevent that. We're going to find out that Boeing made a very stupid error in judgment in the way they set the travel limits for that plane's system (that is, it was certified for much less travel than was actually built into it), and it's going to cost them big-time (as it should). OTOH, look at Air France 447 for just one example of the countless times pilots drove a plane into stall and killed people. It happens all the time. The bottom line is that if a system like active handling malfunctions in 1/1000 vehicles, nearly 100% of average drivers malfunction at some point in their driving lives. These active systems are designed to minimize or eliminate the bad consequences of those driver malfunctions, and they do a good job (and are getting better). The stats bear that out: despite the fact that we are ever more distracted and poorly trained to drive cars, our accidents per miles driven and especially our fatalities have gone down steadily over the years.
To be honest, I thought you were joining in with the ABS stuff, but I do see that you were taking issue with a specific blanket statement I wrote. And I have and will give you the example of going down a steep hill in the snow with ABS. I defer to your experience on that. So there may be occasions where it happens that ABS actually does get in the driver's way. But those situations are statistically very rare vs the number of panic stops we all have to do on the streets. And also, I will hypothesize that on your steep hill, without ABS, 95% of drivers would still panic and lock the brakes and still not stop. Way back around 1988 or 1989, before most cars had ABS, we had an ice storm where I went to college. A bunch of us spent the day at our friend's shop helping him with a motor project, and it was the bottom of a hill that ended in a "T" intersection. We ended up spectating as one car after another locked up, slid down the hill, and blew through the intersection. A lot of cars and a lot of curbs got injured that day.
In the end, we all have to admit that no matter how skilled we are at driving, even the best of us have panicked and made bad control inputs. I know that my skills have allowed me to avoid things that other drivers wouldn't, but I can also admit that ABS has saved my *** at least a couple times. I think any honest professional race driver would say the same. But anyway, it seems like we actually mostly agree, just not on some details.
Last edited by MatthewMiller; 04-11-2019 at 12:13 AM.
What I said in post 26 was still pertinent about the delay of the C8. I was talking about scope creep and technology and building more into the product (int this case a car) than what should have been and I have talked about other issues GM has actually had regarding engineering eff-ups and rushing to market. At least they didn't rush to market again like they did with the RPO LLY version of the Duramax (they were trying to meet 2007 emissions standards early and 1 up Ford and Chrysler, all of which are in a 1 up each other game with the pickups).
Regardless of which way the conversation has gone, it is still a valuable read. This is the kind of conversation a bunch of guys having drinks or lunch together could have, each having points to make, experiences and opinions to throw out, all based on their own life experiences and knowledge.
Regardless of which way the conversation has gone, it is still a valuable read. This is the kind of conversation a bunch of guys having drinks or lunch together could have, each having points to make, experiences and opinions to throw out, all based on their own life experiences and knowledge.
I see the auto industry at the juncture of 2 transformative technologies: 1) going electric/hybrid and cutting carbon footprint and 2) developing autonomous cars.
I think they should spend their money on nailing #1 before moving on to #2.
The dream of getting in your car and saying ‘go to XYZ address’ and then surfing the internet on your big screen should be a long, careful, triple tested cycle.
Tesla’s have already been documented with drivers asleep at the wheel. Both drivers and the industry will abuse the emerging technology. In the future, I see the safety aspect of autonomy being raised to a national crisis level by some politicians, that ALL cars should be made to allow sleeping idiots to arrive at their destination. That goal will be very expensive for consumers.
I get that safety and technology can go hand in hand, but the near fever pitch of putting more safety controls in cars can lead to abuse (ignoring driver inputs). The more the masses are aware of that, hopefully the more engineers will be tasked with letting the driver drive.
If safety was as big of a concern as some would want, we wouldn’t have the roads populated with so many short wheelbase top-heavy tippy SUV’s that roll over at the slightest bump from another car. We have tippy unstable SUVs, so they’ll put in features that prevent steering the wheels quickly. I can almost guarantee that system won’t work well in all weather and road conditions.
The intermittent wiper function on my 07 Range Rover is tied to road speed and a moisture sensor on the windshield. In many weather conditions it is useless, to where I have no intermittent function to use when I want it.
On the 737 MAX; Boeing put that MCAS system in a cockpit that is supposed to be manned by intelligent, trained professionals. To repeatedly override the intent of the pilots and drive the plane into the ground was very telling as to where safety controls can go. Why didn’t an altitude sensor override the MCAS and level the plane when the landing gear was up? Why ain't I in charge of Boeing software???
Again, I think autonomy should be a far 2nd priority to lowering next gen cars carbon footprint.
What I said in post 26 was still pertinent about the delay of the C8. I was talking about scope creep and technology and building more into the product (int this case a car) than what should have been and I have talked about other issues GM has actually had regarding engineering eff-ups and rushing to market. At least they didn't rush to market again like they did with the RPO LLY version of the Duramax (they were trying to meet 2007 emissions standards early and 1 up Ford and Chrysler, all of which are in a 1 up each other game with the pickups).
This may well be true. However, it's important to keep in mind two things. First, these various safety nannies we're talking about are selling features. They wouldn't be pushing them if the general buying public didn't respond favorably to them. Also - and especially with respect to the C8 - there's no way any car company would release a car with the speed and power that modern supercars have without employing a crap ton of nannies to keep the average driver from quickly killing himself. Whether we like it or not, they have to cover their asses from tort claims. For example, Porsche took a lot of flak for designing the car in which Paul Walker died, even though it was clearly a case of an idiot driving way above his head on old tires on a public street. Dodge took heat for years over not have ABS on the Viper. We currently can buy a 755hp C7, and if they are really contemplating a 1000hp C8 then the mind reels at how much trouble someone could get in. Frankly, I can't believe any of these companies are building cars this fast. These things would have been completely unthinkable in the 1980s! We are truly in a golden age of performance cars.
Regardless of which way the conversation has gone, it is still a valuable read. This is the kind of conversation a bunch of guys having drinks or lunch together could have, each having points to make, experiences and opinions to throw out, all based on their own life experiences and knowledge.
The difficulty is that it is done on a forum.
Very much agreed! I enjoy these kinds of discussions. I always learn things.
I swear sometimes traction control has actively tried to get me killed. I used to have an awd trailblazer SS. That truck was fantastic in the winter BUT ONLY IF I remembered to fully disable the traction control and stabilitrak every time I got in it. If left to it’s own devises, the computer was more than happy to cut power to the wheels at the slightest hint of wheel spin and leave me like a sitting duck in the middle of an intersection refusing to send power to the wheels no matter how much throttle you gave it. More throttle actually made it worse as it would just keep pulling power and bogging down.
We got a pretty big snowstorm (big for Delaware standards....12 inches or so) a couple years ago and a guy in a newer mustang was stuck trying to get out of our neighborhood. I pulled over to help him out, and noticed that instead of spinning the rear wheels, it was just sitting there revving the engine but the wheels were barely moving. The guy thought I was crazy when I suggested we turn off his traction control, but sure enough as soon as I convinced him to try it he pretty much pulled right out from where he was stuck and motored off on his way.
I swear sometimes traction control has actively tried to get me killed. I used to have an awd trailblazer SS.
The TC in a C4 absolutely sucks. It's an incredibly blunt instrument and I disable it every time I drive the car. The newest systems on performance cars are very different animals.
FYI, the TC in the C6 wasn't any better. Reacted about as quickly, about as precisely (IOW, it just killed the engine) and recovered about as fast. Only "improvement" over the C4 was that the gas pedal didn't kick back at you. Not sure that was an improvement though.
Originally Posted by MatthewMiller
We are truly in a golden age of performance cars.
So they say. Why then, have I pretty much lost all interest in new cars? Another 700hp car? Yawn. The C8? BFD, as far as I'm concerned. The "want" for it (and other new cars like it) is right about zero, for this guy. Why? It's not an honest experience. It's muted, artificially applied, displaced....it's not authentic and therefore, it's not fun. My C4 is 10x moree fun (to me and my wife) then my C6 was, b/c the experience is honest, straightforward and real. I get out of the car, exactly what I put into it. The C6 was driving a robot....what fun is that? It wasn't fun, for this enthusiast.
MY "C8"? A Factory Five GTM super car with my choice of power. No nannies, authentic experience...all "mine". That is where my interest is steering toward these days. Something real that someone made...not a robot.
FYI, the TC in the C6 wasn't any better. Reacted about as quickly, about as precisely (IOW, it just killed the engine) and recovered about as fast. Only "improvement" over the C4 was that the gas pedal didn't kick back at you. Not sure that was an improvement though.
So they say. Why then, have I pretty much lost all interest in new cars? Another 700hp car? Yawn. The C8? BFD, as far as I'm concerned. The "want" for it (and other new cars like it) is right about zero, for this guy. Why? It's not an honest experience. It's muted, artificially applied, displaced....it's not authentic and therefore, it's not fun. My C4 is 10x moree fun (to me and my wife) then my C6 was, b/c the experience is honest, straightforward and real. I get out of the car, exactly what I put into it. The C6 was driving a robot....what fun is that? It wasn't fun, for this enthusiast.
MY "C8"? A Factory Five GTM super car with my choice of power. No nannies, authentic experience...all "mine". That is where my interest is steering toward these days. Something real that someone made...not a robot.
I understand. It's an amazing time in terms of measurable performance, but not always in terms of driver experience (in the ways you're referring to). The GTM actually is a very interesting kit concept to me.
Up to the point in my life, where I bought my C6, I had a slew of 200-300 hp F-bodys. They were fun. FUN! But as I increased power in each of those, they became more fun; more good sounds, more good thrust, just better in every way. I established a belief that if I could get any of those to 400hp...that would be "it".
I never did, and was able to purchase a new C6...so that's what I did. It was 400 hp, slightly lighter than the F-bods and so it should have been MONEY! So why wasn't it, when I drove the thing. It took buying my C4 and driving it to discover what I wise man had tried to tell my years earlier; 400 hp isn't "it", if you can't experience it in the right way. Now I look at the 460, 650 and 755 hp offerings and...I don't see "it". I see a disconnected, remote experience. One I've no interest in.
I've been drooling over the FF GTM for years. I was about to pull the trigger on one in '11, then I quit the job I was working at and lost that financial "security/margin". Took a few years to stabilize again, and I'm doing the 'Vette Kart project right now. Still looking at the GTM for later, or perhaps a retirement project. I visited their factory a few years ago when I was visiting family in Mass....I was very impressed.
Ayuh. Well....been driving this car since I was 9 years old (admittedly not daily driven though). With mechanically actuated (steel from the pedal to the wheel), rear brakes only....haven't wrecked it yet.
Paying attention and awareness will help way, WAY more than ABS ever will.
Ayuh. Well....been driving this car since I was 9 years old (admittedly not daily driven though). With mechanically actuated (steel from the pedal to the wheel), rear brakes only....haven't wrecked it yet.
Needs coilovers. They're more efficient and modern, and ride way better.
I try to keep a big gap between my truck and cars in front of me at stop signs because it randomly lurches forward and I have almost bumped cars in front of me.
Ahhh.. The wonders of drive by wire.
Contrary to popular belief, some of this is not superior technology entering the market place.
This is inferior technology (but cheap to produce) relying on software to survive.
And that particular problem sounds like a converter issue. Something also common to the 6L series.
There have been transmission problems resulting in class-action lawsuits for decades. Honda had to extend warranties on millions of vehicles dating back into the 90s because of transmission problems. This is not a good reason to stick with non-synchro 3-speeds and Powerglides! Also, drive-by-wire is probably not cheaper than a cable to produce, and it most certainly is not inferior. This is yet another technology that is used in every racing series where it's allowed, including F1 and WEC prototypes.
There have been transmission problems resulting in class-action lawsuits for decades. Honda had to extend warranties on millions of vehicles dating back into the 90s because of transmission problems. This is not a good reason to stick with non-synchro 3-speeds and Powerglides! Also, drive-by-wire is probably not cheaper than a cable to produce, and it most certainly is not inferior. This is yet another technology that is used in every racing series where it's allowed, including F1 and WEC prototypes.
Yup, it all manufacturers, Nissan CVT's, subaru CVT's, etc. Hell, subaru is still having head gasket problems, it's almost been 30yrs and they can't/won't figure it out. And they came out and reclassified head gaskets as "wearable parts" to avoid more recalls and class actions.
04-11-2019, 12:13 AM
That is where my interest is steering toward these days. Something real that someone made...not a robot.
That's what I've been trying to say! :-D
