1Eyed Willie

Gingerman Raceway has Fast Guy Track Days throughout the season. It is not crowded at all. No run groups. No stupid mandatory morning meetings, etc. Everyone there is experienced and helpful.

You can go one time per summer for $300 and not have to signup for the whole season.

Here's my thought...We coordinate a day and all meet up. For those unfamiliar with track days, the experienced drivers can explain everything and ride along until that one's comfortable.

https://www.gingermanraceway.com/fast-guy-club.html

Also, VR Performance does an open track day once per year at Mid Ohio. No run groups. Just wide open fun!!! I've contacted them to find out if they're planning to do so this year as well.

http://vrperformance.com/

ChumpVette

130 seems kind of an arbitrary speed to set as the safety standard. I think hitting a concrete barricade at 100 wouldn’t be that pleasant either.

1Eyed Willie

My dad can attest to that. He went off track at 100 and hit the pile of tires and concrete wall. It knocked him out cold and two years later he still can't remember what happened. Scary stuff.

1Eyed Willie

The issue is getting up to 140+ and then having to brake to 50mph to take a corner. Any brake failure or loss of grip and you're off track.

Most production cars with 450hp can't brake or handle well enough, so the driver is forced to brake early and hope it'll stick in the corners. Makes that hp pretty irrelevant.

Just my opinion.

pedricd

Sounds awesome!!!

Mixednuttz

I hadn't thought to look for videos of that track. Looks like he didn't get much above 70mph. (A good thing in my opinion. One of the reasons aside from the distance from me is the concern that BIR has long straights. Probably not a great first track.) I looked at the Track Night website, the Novice Experience is probably exactly what I'm looking for.
That event is May 5th this year. I've put it on my calendar and invited one of the apprentices I work with. (Has an Audi but some track experience.)
That settles it: I'm feverishly prepping the 85, addressing any of my excuses (perceived deficiencies) and going to make getting there a priority this spring!
Is there anyone in MN or western WI that is interested in going?

Tom400CFI

I'd do a meet up w/in a 10 hr drive or so. More than that is a bit of a commitment.


WRT "a good hp", I see both sides; more power/smoking peeps on straights and out of corners is fun, of course....but more power just drives up heat (and the rate of consumables consumption). I don't see "safety" as a selling point on what the "right" power is: you can kill yourself in a 100 hp car. You can survive in a 500 hp car. Safety is a personal responsibility and your driving/decision making is the main factor in determining your well being...not your car's hp.

I have just as much FUN in my 300 hp C4 as I did in my 400hp C6; they feel the same at the limit. The 400 hp car's lap times are lower, so that'd matter in a race or timed event, but for FUN, both cars feel/felt about the same. The 300hp car hits 120 on UMC's full track straight, the 400hp car would hit 140, but both were at the top of their 4th gears, making similar sounds and feels. In "Corvette from the Inside", there is a side bar where some authority on "sports cars", defined the recipe for the "perfect" sports car, and his opinion was 300 hp was the right amount. I used to scoff at that, but as I get older, I can see the merit to that approximate amount in a 3000 lb'ish car. it's enough to be fun but not too much to smoke through consumables.

The teen Tom, would say, "more power = better!!!" Who could argue with that!? But today's Tom has a different take on it.



.

VikingTrad3r

well yeah. And a c6 better than a c5. and a c7 better than a c6. and a c8 better than a c7.



sort of…because...i would rather be in my c4 zr-1 or my 89 z51 or my daughters soon-to-be 84….than any other car. In my case, im here with y’all cause i want to be.

Cheers

yakmastermax

Interesting. I don't know enough about the technical details of most of that stuff, but I was wondering what you thought about the following potentially over-simplified dichotomy:

An early 84 or 85 Z51 suspension vs a later suspension with a fair bit of work put into it, say coilovers, swaybars, etc

I'm thinking about a C4 that would be more track/autocross focused. The early cars are stiffer and have "better" suspensions for that stuff, but make less power, while the later cars make more power, but then need suspension work, no?

I was back home visiting my family over Christmas and we all took turns driving my 89 FE1 back to back with my little brothers 85 Z51 and the difference in steering response was stark. My 89 does have the NS cap fast ratio rack, so the steering ratios are the same. His 85 has 275 or 285 width tires, not sure if that makes a difference. Also I swapped all the front bushings on that car to Energy Suspension Polyurethane back when I was a teenager. When you turned the wheel on his 85 Z51 is just responded better. Not to mention it stayed flatter and had less roll.

ACMX92

I live about 30 min away from Putnam Park. I have been meaning to go ever since I moved out here but I have never done a track day before. My C4 might not be track ready this year but I have another car that would probably be just fine for a novice like myself to try things out and get a feel for it.

MatthewMiller

An 88-91 Z51 would have the exact same rear spring as the 85 Z51, with a stiffer front spring that may or may not provider a higher wheel rate than the 85 Z51 (I'd have to know the early car's front motion ratio for its spring). So they should be extremely similar. Your FE1, though, has softer springs and swaybars, of course. But yeah, plenty of other variables play a role too. Probably the biggest difference-maker is the shocks: stiffer providers faster response. The bushings help a little. Tires: not just size but brand/model and air pressures make a real difference. Alignment also matters: more toe out at either end and/or front negative camber will make it more responsive to steering inputs.

These are some thing I can think of off my. I could be wrong, but I kind of doubt the change in suspension geometries explains most of the difference in steering response.

yakmastermax

Hmm so is this to say that a later car, 88-96 done so it has a comparable wheel rate to an 84 or 85 Z51, meaning whatever upgraded springs are necessary, plus accompanying stiff shock valving, and sway bars, should feel pretty dang close to the early cars?

MatthewMiller

I've never done anything close to a comparison test. I think on a typical road course they would perform similarly in times and they would probably have similar response to steering inputs. I think the steering feel would be significantly different. Also, the 88+ cars have a lot more anti-dive up front due to the higher angle of the upper control arms in side view. This probably takes away some "feel" from the front end and makes a bit less compliant over bumps. As I've noted before, I think the early front end makes a bigger difference in autocross scenarios where there is lots of high-angle steering. In those situations, the later front end's high steering axis inclination reduces camber at high steering angles.

yakmastermax

Hmm yeah I am not super super concerned with absolute performance or competition, but I am definitely chasing that feel my little brothers 85 Z51 has when you turn the wheel. It felt like the car just wanted you to dive into the corner and carve it. Hard to describe but it felt GOOD while my 89 feels like it just pushes out, sorta understeers.

I am still just in the talking and considering phase with all of this, and might go the whole upcoming season with my 89, but I am trying to learn more about this.

I am curious if anyone has sorta back to back driven an early 84 or 85 base or Z51 car with a later geometry car that has a race suspension. Not to compare lap times, but to just speak to the differences in feel. For me if I can basically get the same steering feel out of a later car with suspension and maybe a rack upgrade, that is important to know. But if that isn't really possible, then that is important to know too!

It sounds like you are saying that the FEEL might be unique to the earlier cars' geometry, so that no amount of spring rate and valving might achieve the same feel, even if it does achieve the same performance?

MatthewMiller

Yes, the "zero-scrub" geometry of the later cars probably locks that in, and there's no good way to change that without ditching the whole thing and swapping in an early subframe and suspension. And there are tradeoffs for that, too.

But by "steering feel," I mean feedback through the wheel, not " it just pushes out, sorta understeers." Those are two different things. The latter is handling balance, not feel. Your stock FE3 has a much bigger split between front and rear spring rates than the 85 Z51. Yours has front rates of 93N/mm front and 39.9N/mm rear, whereas the 85 has rates of 63 and 57, respectively. Granted, on the front there's a difference in motion ratio, so the f/r split in wheel rates isn't as big as those numbers indicate, but it's still pretty significant. For the 89 Z51, they bumped the rates up to 115.5 and 57.2. This is the famous "challenge" spring set, and it's probably the best starting point for you to upgrade your 89's handling. They also used stiffer sway bars: 30mm/24mm (both solid) compared to your 26mm tubular and 22mm solid rear. The difference in response and probably handling balance between and 89 FE1 and 89 Z51 should be pretty night and day. Also, there's no way to overstate the importance of getting as much front negative camber as possible for autocross and track duty.

coreseller

It's a very good novice type track, very flat (like most of Indiana) and plenty of run off room.

VikingTrad3r

you and
y@ACMX92 should organize a c4 day!! would give acm a reason to do all fluids and install track pads!

coreseller

Probably a good idea, I have a grocery list of small things I have to address on my recently acquired C4. A track day would force me to address many things I'd otherwise put off lol.

yakmastermax

Hey all!

First race of the season is just 10 days out!

This coming weekend I want to do a sort of pre-flight checklist, and I was curious what yall might recommend to add to the checklist, or what sort of inspection yall do? Middle of last season I upgraded my pads and fluid to Dynamic Friction Components and Motul 660 fluid after experiencing some scary brake fade...

So this weekend:
Oil change and new filter
Top off all fluids
Bleed brake system
Check torque on all brake system hardware

Anything else to add?

MatthewMiller

I would just bleed the brakes, I'd flush the system entirely with fresh fluid. The Motul 660 you used last time is probably fine, but Castrol SRF is better - especially if you aren't flushing the fluid before every event - because it has a much higher wet boiling point.