Hi all,

I'd like to pick your collective brains for a moment: My father has an 87 Vert that has had some no start problems. It first manifested as a situation where it would start fine, run, then all of a sudden shut down. It would not start,and I noted that the fuel pump wasn't running. Checked all fuses - all ok. Changed the fuel filter. Changed the fuel pump, and tested the entire assembly - all ok. Connected a power source to the "G" terminal of the ALDL, and just a clicking coming from under the hood. Later on, after removal of the pump, checking, reinstallation, then the power from the battery to the "G" terminal runs the pump as it should - engine starts, and runs fine for about 10 minutes, then dies out. Again, power to the "G" terminal and just a clicking from the battery area. Also, we crossed the D and E lines going into the fuel pump relay - clicking still, but not from the fuel pump relay. the sound seems to be coming from something around the battery area.

SO - who's got the knowledge on this one? It's a stumper to be sure. What's my next move?

Thanks in advance,

Dwight

 

Anybody had a problem like this?

 

Dwight, sending u an e mail shortly.

Brian

 

Next move... connect a fuel pressure gauge to the test port on the fool rail.
make sho you got some fool pressure...

Monitor it BEFORE cranking as the fuel pressure should come up to 40psi or so before the start sequence.

If it does and stays up while you attempt to start then.....if it still won't start...

Get one of those spark plug testers down at the parts store and make sure you have spark at the plugs.
(You can arc it to ground but beee carefulll. you won't like getting hit by a good HEI system spark....it HURTS)

If the fuel pressure and the spark is good.....you're going to need a "noid" light to check the injector pulses. Another trip to Pep Boys should do it.
Check to make sure you have the injector pulses.

If you find a problem in ANY of these areas, post back here and I'll zero you on in....

These FI engines are just like always...fuel/air/spark.
There's only a single handful of things that will keep it from starting.
There's another handful of things that can make it RUN like poopy but not a whole lot that will keep it from starting.

It's no big thing to fix... just do a little troubleshooting and be our ears and eyes...we'll fix the sucker right here!! If you'll do the testing, we'll do the diagnosing.

What about it guys? Sound like fun??

 

If the fuel pump runs, then plenty of pressure and the car runs fine. Until the pump gets shut down (why I don't know) and it stalls.

Already checked the spark - all is good.

The funny thing is that when juice is put to the "G" spot :D on the ALDL, then sometimes the pump will run (like it should) and sometimes I just get a click from 'something' in front of the battery, on the firewall in that area - NOT the fuel pump relay.

I guess the next step will be to pull the side panel off and see if I can trace the source of the clicking noise - this is a puzzler. I can't even find any note of another relay in the shop manual - something else is in line between the fuel pump relay and the pump assembly itself.

Anyone know what it could be??????????????????????

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Thanks for the input though - any other ideas?

Dwight

 

I sent you a IM......

 

Thanks man - I'll check that oil pressure switch - didn't even know about that one - its that or the fuel pump relay itself. Now to figure out which - maybe replace both?

:confused:

 

Dwight, I sent u an e mail after I read your comments more carefully. Sounds very much like the fp relay to me. I described a couple of ways to test it. Let me know how that goes, good luck!

 

Check your connectors, maybe there is an intermittent connection :cheers:

 

Thanks alot Brian - sent you one back. As for the connectors, everything seems fine, but the only thing that bothers me is that I can see the wire windings going into the fuel pump relay - is that normal? It doesn't see to be causing any trouble, and none are touching each other.

Anyway, back to the struggle,

:confused:

 

Replace the fuel pump relay.
Pull a plug to see if its dry. Clean the battery cables.
Install a VATS lock out.
Spray carb cleaner in the intake to see if it starts, if it does its a fuel problem.
Check pressure at the fuel rail.
When you turn on the key you should hear the fuel pump whine. If you can't hear the pump and its new, the relay is probably bad.
Is the no start with a cold engine, or a hot engine.
If you don't want to guess a repair, buy a code reader and a manual.
Good luck.

 

The fuel pump relay IS on the firewall next ot the distributor.
Just because it clicks doesn't mean it will pass current through the relay contacts to the fuel pump.

To check the oil pressure switch, the relay and the fuel pump in one fell swoop... connect the fuel pressure gauge to the fuel rail test port and check the fuel pressure... if it's good you can go on an look for something else besides these parts.

The oil pressure switch will bypass the fuel pump relay once oil pressure builds.
Even if the pump relay is bad if you crank on it long enough to build oil pressure, it'll start and keep running.......it will just be hard to start.

If the oil pressure goes away OR the oil pressure switch goes bad while running, the engine will quit due to lack of fuel.

Any more hints??

 

"They Don't Write Songs About Volvos".

Hey Rex Ruby..... GREAT SIGN!!!!

 

The no start can be with the engine hot or cold. It doesn't discriminate!! The pump doesn't whine when turning on the ignition, and this is why there is no fuel pressure. Once in a blue moon, the pump will whine, and it'll start. Sometimes it'll run for 2 seconds, sometimes 10 seconds, sometimes 10 minutes - but once it stalls again, the pump is the problem - it isn't running, not when connecting to the "G" terminal, and not when simply turning on the ignition.

Also, you can crank till you're blue in the face, and she won't start - I've cranked it till there is loads of oil pressure, and still, the pump isn't running, and still no start.

I want to test to see if there is power at the fuse panel - I have a feeling it is either the fuel relay, or most probably the oil pressure switch (makes more sense).

What do you guys think?

 

You can safely jump 12v to the fuel pump fuse and this will apply 12v to the fuel pump. If the pump runs , then you have fuel pump relay, oil pressure switch, or wiring problem. If it doesn't run, then you have a fuel pump or wiring (including the motor wire ground) problem.

 

Go to http://www.gordonkillebrew.com I took a C4 class from him at Bloomington Gold. He is an expert on everything C4 and seems to be a straight up guy. He will do phone consults at $10 per phone call and $3/minute. It might be the best bucks you will ever spend. It does sound like there is a lot of good free expertise here on the forum though. :lurk:

 

You definetly need a wiring diagram for your year car. The diagram for my 92 isn't the same for a 87. With a schematic , it should be fairly easy to figure out give the trouble shooting you have done.

 

I'm going for the pump being bad OR the wire connections at the pump are loose.

Since there are two paths that will power up the pump, it sounds more likely the pump is intermittent or the connections are loose at the pump.

There was a thread on here awhile back where someone had bad connections at the pump/sending unit interface.

 

BTW,

I have NEVER heard the pump run on my 84 or my 91.
They run, they're just quite. And I'm not THAT 'herd of haring'.

I think you are all over this...looks like the pump, though. You'll get it next session you work on it. :)

 

I don't think its the pump, but we shall see - the pump is brand new, and it was tested (along with the entire assembly) out of the tank - could very well be wiring/loose connection at the tank though - this is what I'm putting my money on - I'll keep you guys up to date - my dad wants to replace the fuel solenoid/relay first, so that's what is next. I don't think it'll make any difference, but I can't talk him out of it!

Thanks again,

I'll keep all informed.

Dwight