CFI-EFI.... your techinque mistifys me.. BUT you drove the fast lane and won! .. your analyse. ...perfect..i hope i supplied enough info for this not to happen to someone else. pic and movie were uploaded to prove the felpro GASKET 1010, can and has ruptured with proper installation. as Jake point out. the thickness of the gasket is a whammy "out to lunch"...in the package i recieved.

i will reinstall felpros' PT-9 standard head gaskets with the 1204 as full flow intakes. i still believe this flow as extra cooling between each bank is better...

whatcha think about this?

 

First, a picture certainly is worth a thousand words. No amount of description would make me visualize what that picture shows. I've never seen anything like it. Two things come to mind, but they both boil down to the same problem. Surface flatness. With all the other things they didn't do to your heads, what is your confidence level that they really surfaced them, or made sure they were flat, surfaced or not? The other item concerns the flatness of the block deck. Obviously, the same questions, but also, IF they really decked the block (probably) did they re-chamfer the head bolt holes? If the bolt holes in the block aren't chamfered, the threads can "pull" when they are torqued. I have to admit, I've never seen the consequences of bolt holes that weren't chamfered, but your head gasket looks just as I imagine one would look, if they weren't. Check to see if the deck is "raised" around those bolt holes. You may meed a straight edge, but I'll bet you can feel it with your fingers. The way it appears to me, a pair of head gaskets are the least of your problems. I'll bet a nickle against a donut, the gaskets weren't the cause. DAMN!!!

RACE ON!!!

 

.. now comes the analsyse.. what happen is the question?.. determined to find out why.....currently asking a lot of questions...some answers come forth ....were the bolt holes chamfered?..yes i can SEE that they are. were the heads flat/shaved?... just me measured them ... the flatness runout on the pass head is .0015 in six inches. "now thats good"..max is .030 in 6 inch length wise. width is .001" . block runoutwidth reading .000"... length .0005 full length. deck is not rasied..( maching done by another machine shop) measurement tools "starrett "staight edge, 2'' x 5/16"X 24" machined bar..starrett mirco feeler gauge.. there is no lack of tools here. i do have full machine "garage" shop capablity...

i wont quit till i find out..........ummmmmm

 

[QUOTE=korvette4uthe flatness runout on the pass head is .0015 in six inches. "now thats good"..max is .030 in 6 inch
i wont quit till i find out..........ummmmmm[/QUOTE]

Did you mean to type .030 or .003? .030 seems like an awful lot, but I haven't had a chance to look up that spec yet.

Jake

 

[QUOTE=JAKE]that was a typo. should be .003 in 6inches max

 

Jake...sorry you couldn't find that article. Unfortunetly I'm sitting in a hotel room 3500 miles from home and headed for a cruise ship. Obviously "shooting from the hip" on my memory isn't very good. On the fliip side tho, I know I read it. I was thinking that it may have been in a magazine my neighbor lent me. It was one of those dedicated to Corvettes. If you have the time to look, you might check "Corvette". It's like looking for a needle in a hay stack but DAMN, I know I wans't smoking my own shorts when I read it. :ack

 

update: i have call in felpro teck line: 1-800-325-8886. will post results in about an hour or so.

 

update: discussed with felpro tech.

Problem:
failure fire ring expanding into head bolts, (see pic earlier posted)felpro1010, compressed gasket as taken off thickness 42.5, actual new proir to installation .052", first record failure @ #8 cyl


Installed Conditons:
felpro 1010 head gaskets, when used in combination of l98 with 345NCP .020" OB, block decked .020", heads shaved .005", 175lbs compression, 10.24:1 C/R, heads (113's)bolts torgue to OEM @ 65ftlbs long, short @60LBS. within 70miles.

Explanation: is a list of causes
- low octane , causing high combustion temperatures (1600*f)
- dentonation, 89 vintage ecms are not fast enough to pull back timing to prevent dentonation
- failure in install vew ARP 190,000psiT/S head bolts.
- improper torque/or sequence
- total compression of gasket installed thickness .0395" with spring back to .003 - .004" when clamp force is relieved (.00425")
- compression exceeding OEM specs
- block/heads not flat/square
- improper spark plugs, too high heat range

Recommendation for repair:
to prevent future comprize of the felpro 1010 head gasket, the list above to be corrected, with torque sequence to be following by ARP recommendation.

this is the explanation i recieved, i did suggest to them that there was a article written in "Corvette fever MAG", ( i do not have the facts to this arcticle)....no reply to this.

ok, this seems logical, now explain, why the same application was applied to my 87, last year, and it is running well? the answer, short of not telling me anything, was "differenent setup and might be that proper assembly had been followed"......ended discussion

OK NOW call i little here

conclusion: it seems to me that there is a lot of things that have to be exactly right by way of installation, before they FELPRO will deems thier 1010 gasket failure.. non the less is has failed, in one of my applications and not the other....

 

I hope you didn't misunderstand my post. I believe you read it, I was just posting to let everyone know that I'd tried to find it and couldn't. It could be one of those items that didn't make their site.

That's the kind of thing that would make it's way into one of the mags even though it's a definite black-eye for Fel-Pro.

I haven't tried VETTE mag though, thanks for mentioning that. I'll check to see if their site has it. Maybe someone on the Forum has come across it and will post the info we need.

BTW, sounds like you're headed for a NICE vacation; ENJOY! I need one too, after all Dennis just put me through. ROFL ROFL

Jake

 

I figured as much; .003 sounds right too.

Jake

 

thank JAKE, updated while you writting this message. please read

 

Okay, here's my take on the whole thing.

I've run 1010s when I had a 350 block and never had a problem, but I was using ARPs best head bolts. Whether that makes the difference, I can't definitely say, but that explanation sounds like BS to me.

Second, I can't believe you didn't follow the correct torque sequence, so that point is blown out of the water.

Detonation; Even if you DID have detonation, I'm sure you would have lifted long before the gaskets could have been damaged to the extent yours are. Infact, the much detonation should show up on the spark plugs, pistons and even the bearings would be knocked out of round.

Last night I went out and measured a few old Fel-Pro heads gaskets I had laying around. Two were 400s and one a 350. The 400s measured +.007 and the 350 +.004 at the fire ring. So in the case of the 400s, their spring-back explanation doesn't jive.

My gut tells me that Fel-Pro had a run of bad head gaskets and is now doing what in psychology is called Denial and Guilt Transference; don't admit to any wrong-doing and blame it on someone else.

This isn't at all uncommon either. Look at what the auto makers do to avoid a recall; until the government steps in and forces it.

Look at the song and dance Air Flow Research is doing about the quality control problems with their heads. They've even gone so far as to ask guys NOT TO POST their AFR head problems on the Forum. You know, words to the effect of: Let's keep it a secret guys. Don't post about it on the web, call me instead and we'll work it out.

Look at what MORE did about the wrong sized piston they installed in an engine they built that a Forum member now has. What did they do? NOTHING.

Companies settle law suits and agree to pay multi-million dollar settlement costs but add the caveat to the effect "We're not admitting to any wrong-doing."

None of them has stepped up to the plate and admited their error or fault. Blame it on the other guy seems to be the norm now. Bottom line is it's all about their reputation in the market-place, which translates into - it's all about $$$$$$$$$.

What ever happened to honesty anyway?

Jake

 

oh well. moving on....got all things clean up.. would like to add that the intake to block seals up nicely with all that XXXXX metal stamped on it and the block..that silicone did even pull off the block. prefect seal it was. Also had recalbriate torgue wrench to see if IT HAD THE problem..WELL it IS FINE!...also checked my datamaster log files . DEnotation BS...it showed upon startup..and VERY FEW counts after the first intial run.. reset timing ..reviewed second log...start up only.. with no knock during test run...this is good.. they (felpro) think we have no way of checking...when i suggested that i have that file available for them to review...they insisted that datamaster is not reconized as "suitable" test/analyse data logger.. ...go figure.

looking at the new gasket. felpro PT-2 which is part of the HS 7733-PT-9 gasket set.. there is very little difference, actual only 2holes-3/8" of the coolant track is enlarged (upper center between cylinder, OEM is 1/4"x 2). the other hole do not match the block and really are not needed.
when i spoke to supplier, he suggested that the orginal OEM gasket is probably better and the RACING FELPRO 1010 is their way of saying "RACE PERFORMANCE QUAILTITY"...more relented proganda..he did however replaced with upper gasket set.. SAying "let's make this problem disappear &What do you want"....he included a set of ARP headbolts ..these are great guys MOPAC PERFORMANCE here in CALGARY.

temp outside here today is 21*C ..i have restocked my frig...as i reminder to move on...

i still would like for all members to be at least cautious in thier rebuild..as if you do go performance there is no "warranty" but your own..lesson over

PS: before tearing down, i had built a new "PROTOTYPE" air pump eliminator, that was orginally designed by plasticman, i modified it considerably using thinner aluminium plates, relieving the clearance issue with bolts, enlarged the diameter of the pulley to accept a standard dayco, and by reversing my polished aluminium pulley, it makes it a truely a custom unit..this unit lowers the pulley into the engine compartment and does require new belt...pics of it in the for sale section..one only...