Dry oil sumping
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Dry oil sumping
Dry sumping a C4 was brought up in the road racing section
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1356401
I've seen it here as well, and I thought you might find this interesting.
I've been working with Gary Hoffman (Hardbar) on his GT1 car, and he sent me the following email and pics over the weekend:
Sidenote: I'd love to get his engine compartment brace on my C4
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1356401
I've seen it here as well, and I thought you might find this interesting.
I've been working with Gary Hoffman (Hardbar) on his GT1 car, and he sent me the following email and pics over the weekend:
Brian,
I saw your posts re: C4 dry sumps. Please host or post these for me please.
The round tooth drive is the latest and greatest on the market now.
Stronger, requires very little tension so the bearings last longer, and uses
less HP. BTW, you are 100% right, dry sump makes HP. On this motor, it was
worth 18 HP when the crankcase was sealed versus vented.
Cheers,
Gary
I saw your posts re: C4 dry sumps. Please host or post these for me please.
The round tooth drive is the latest and greatest on the market now.
Stronger, requires very little tension so the bearings last longer, and uses
less HP. BTW, you are 100% right, dry sump makes HP. On this motor, it was
worth 18 HP when the crankcase was sealed versus vented.
Cheers,
Gary
Sidenote: I'd love to get his engine compartment brace on my C4
Team Owner
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From: Athens AL
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Id like to hear about exactly what he had to modify to get that in there, and what parts he bought. Some type of procedure would be nice.
Team Owner
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From: San Pedro CA
that is an all out race car... it's not so much "modified" as it is engineered that way.
Working from memory here, but, drysump requires a shallow pan with a pickup of some sort, an external pump and a storage tank. The real trick in a Vette would be installing the tank! It would, at the very least, require relocating the battery.
Dry sump is teh cool.
I never thought it would be worth that much power, tho. There must be lotsa pumping losses to the standard wet sump. Most interesting.
Working from memory here, but, drysump requires a shallow pan with a pickup of some sort, an external pump and a storage tank. The real trick in a Vette would be installing the tank! It would, at the very least, require relocating the battery.
Dry sump is teh cool.
I never thought it would be worth that much power, tho. There must be lotsa pumping losses to the standard wet sump. Most interesting.
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The one I posted is on a GT1 (ex TransAm car ), but the guy in the racing section post is talking about putting it on a C4.
It's been done on C4's before. The best protection against oil starvation. When you engine build costs more than the car...
It's been done on C4's before. The best protection against oil starvation. When you engine build costs more than the car...
Team Owner
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From: Athens AL
C7 of the Year - Unmodified Finalist 2021
C4 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
Originally Posted by bogus
that is an all out race car... it's not so much "modified" as it is engineered that way.
thus the reason for my question, i want to know the specifics of what was done and exactly how he did it on a C4, i already know the general requirements
specifically what pan he's using, what he had to move, P/N's for things, etc.
Last edited by vader86; Apr 17, 2006 at 01:48 PM.
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The only issue I see is that there's no way that setup will fit with the stock C4 crossmember. Even the factory crankshaft balancer is only a few inches from the crossmember. To make it fit would take some serious frame work.
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The pump doesn't necessarily need to go down by the pan.
On the C6Z06 the scavage pump is right next to the pressure pump, behind the water pump.
Here's an f-body setup for the serpretine belt.
On the C6Z06 the scavage pump is right next to the pressure pump, behind the water pump.
Here's an f-body setup for the serpretine belt.
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Melting Slicks
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From: Austin, TX
Hey Brian, where'd you get the pic of the f-body setup?
I was wondering about using a longer serp belt, potentially mounting it to the passenger side (since that's the only place it would really fit on a lt1/4 'vette). or possibly low on the driver's side, but I don't think there's enough room over there -- need to look at my car.
I was pricing the parts out the other day. I had no idea that stuff was so expensive! lines and adaptors are fine. Tank isn't too bad. The pump is a killer, though! Even the used ones on e-bay are several hundred $.
I was wondering about using a longer serp belt, potentially mounting it to the passenger side (since that's the only place it would really fit on a lt1/4 'vette). or possibly low on the driver's side, but I don't think there's enough room over there -- need to look at my car.
I was pricing the parts out the other day. I had no idea that stuff was so expensive! lines and adaptors are fine. Tank isn't too bad. The pump is a killer, though! Even the used ones on e-bay are several hundred $.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2000
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From: Bedford NH
Cruise-In II Veteran
Originally Posted by bogus
I never thought it would be worth that much power, tho. There must be lotsa pumping losses to the standard wet sump. Most interesting.
www.petersonfluidsystems.com
With a dry sump there is no issue of oil starvation in the corners or during acceleration at all.
Last edited by ghoffman; Apr 18, 2006 at 09:11 AM.
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From: SCMR Rat Pack'r Charter Member..Great Bend KS
Originally Posted by bogus
I never thought it would be worth that much power, tho. There must be lotsa pumping losses to the standard wet sump. Most interesting.
Generally speaking, you don't dry-sump to get horsepower, you do it for other reasons.
That 18hp increase came from someplace else, not from dry-sumping.
That's my opinion.
Larry
code5coupe
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Yes, on the LS7 the scavage pump is right next to the pressure pump.
The F-body setup came from this page.
http://www.drysump.com/drsys4.htm
But I'm finding out it's for an LS1/6 not an LT1/L98
Neat setup, they use the stock pump for pressure.
Here's the old smallblock chevy setup.
http://www.drysump.com/kit1.htm
http://www.drysump.com/pan1b.htm
I'm finding out if the scavage/pressure pump can also be mounted up high like thier LS1/6 setup, which BTW has run at the 24hrs of Daytona.
BTW I've sent the thread addresses over to the vendor.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1367290
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1367285
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1356401
Perhaps if we show enough interest we can get a group purchase going.
The F-body setup came from this page.
http://www.drysump.com/drsys4.htm
But I'm finding out it's for an LS1/6 not an LT1/L98
Neat setup, they use the stock pump for pressure.
Here's the old smallblock chevy setup.
http://www.drysump.com/kit1.htm
http://www.drysump.com/pan1b.htm
I'm finding out if the scavage/pressure pump can also be mounted up high like thier LS1/6 setup, which BTW has run at the 24hrs of Daytona.
BTW I've sent the thread addresses over to the vendor.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1367290
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1367285
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1356401
Perhaps if we show enough interest we can get a group purchase going.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2005
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From: Iowa
You are correct. We dry sump for assurance, not power! Also the pumps that are shown above are small 2 or 3 stage pumps. Most of the full on Road Race stuff is up to 5 or 6 stages now. This makes for a very big pump but also a lot of scavenging under all conditions and out of the lifter valley.
Team Owner
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From: San Pedro CA
Originally Posted by rocco16
Me either. I used to work with guys like John Greenwood and Gary Pratt and we built a few dry-sumped cars.
Generally speaking, you don't dry-sump to get horsepower, you do it for other reasons.
That 18hp increase came from someplace else, not from dry-sumping.
That's my opinion.
Larry
code5coupe
Generally speaking, you don't dry-sump to get horsepower, you do it for other reasons.
That 18hp increase came from someplace else, not from dry-sumping.
That's my opinion.
Larry
code5coupe
I remember reading a story in a circle track type car mag many (~15) years ago about how NASCAR engine builders would gain power by lowering maximum oil pressure. For example, Kyle Petty's engine builder was running a max of 70PSI... and this was when Kyle was a genuine contender...
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Everytime the piston moves down and up it has to move the air that's underneath it. This air also contains oil, so it's that much heavier. This is also compounded by the interaction between the other cylinders.
But, yeah, HP is NOT the main reason behind doing it. Just talk to anyone that's lost an engine due to oil starvation.
Getting oil packed up in the heads is a major problem on a road course. So running an extra evacuation stage to the valve covers would be nice.
BTW
But, yeah, HP is NOT the main reason behind doing it. Just talk to anyone that's lost an engine due to oil starvation.
Getting oil packed up in the heads is a major problem on a road course. So running an extra evacuation stage to the valve covers would be nice.
BTW
-----Original Message-----
From: gary armstrong [mailto:aremfg@ulink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 11:13 AM
To: Brian Cunningham
Subject: Re: Dry sump for a C4 Corvette
Hi Brian, Thanks, The pump must be driven with our gilmer timing belt drive, as the pressure stage takes too much load for a serpentine. The pump should be as low as possible, but if nesc., it can go up a bit. The SBC dry sump pump comes with a blade mount, left side (drivers side) normally.
Gary
From: gary armstrong [mailto:aremfg@ulink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 11:13 AM
To: Brian Cunningham
Subject: Re: Dry sump for a C4 Corvette
Hi Brian, Thanks, The pump must be driven with our gilmer timing belt drive, as the pressure stage takes too much load for a serpentine. The pump should be as low as possible, but if nesc., it can go up a bit. The SBC dry sump pump comes with a blade mount, left side (drivers side) normally.
Gary
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I just got off the phone with Gary. Nice guy.
It turns out a someone did make a dry-sump pan that kept the stock pump in place. But it really didn't work out. 1) having the pump down there really complicates the scavenging. 2) The problems with the stock pump in road race situations.
And you really want to run that pump as close to the pan as possible.
I described the packaging issues with have with both the cog belt and running the pump close to the pan.
I told him about the custom cog setup some of the supercharger guys use, and of it’s cost. He says ATI makes a damper that a cog drive can mate to, and that he’ll look up cog drives that will fit in our small amount of space.
Supercharger guys take note. If this pans out, you can use it to run you blower!
It turns out a someone did make a dry-sump pan that kept the stock pump in place. But it really didn't work out. 1) having the pump down there really complicates the scavenging. 2) The problems with the stock pump in road race situations.
And you really want to run that pump as close to the pan as possible.
I described the packaging issues with have with both the cog belt and running the pump close to the pan.
I told him about the custom cog setup some of the supercharger guys use, and of it’s cost. He says ATI makes a damper that a cog drive can mate to, and that he’ll look up cog drives that will fit in our small amount of space.
Supercharger guys take note. If this pans out, you can use it to run you blower!
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2005
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From: Iowa
Yes that is another benefit of the dry sump. You can set the pump speed through the drive cogs and set it to spin just enough to make the pressure you want at operating speeds. If you want 70-80 pounds at max RPM you can tailor the pump speed to make just that. Many guys will have the pump spin faster though to make more crank vacuum through the entire RPM range and in some of those situation the pressure will be set at idle on not increase much. Different guys have different ideas; who is right? I don't know, I tend to spin them on the faster side though! I have never seen a system that pulls out of the valve covers but it is very common to take it out of the lifter valley on blocks that are designed for dry sumps like my Rodeck 350+. Very nice to have that option and it does not have any drain back over the cam. It has to all go out the front or rear.
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From: Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.
St. Jude '03 thru '24
Originally Posted by BrianCunningham
The best protection against oil starvation. When you engine build costs more than the car...
Google accusump for more more info if your interested. Or http://www.accusump.com/acc_accusumps.html
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From: Overwhelmed as one would be, placed in my position.... DFW, TX
St. Jude Donor '05
Originally Posted by JrRifleCoach
Another option is an AccuSump for the budget minded Auto-X'rs.
Google accusump for more more info if your interested. Or http://www.accusump.com/acc_accusumps.html
Google accusump for more more info if your interested. Or http://www.accusump.com/acc_accusumps.html
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Just an FYI, the thread in the road racing section is up to 6 pages.
Two members were kind enough to share pics of thier running systems.
Two members were kind enough to share pics of thier running systems.