Alcohol (FUEL)
Racer
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 405
Likes: 0
From: 1984 crossfire, Alhaurin de la Torre Malaga, Spain
Originally Posted by JIMBO7
Has anyone used Ethanol as fuel in their vette? If so, what results over gas? Did you use a mix? What ratio. Is there possible damage of any kind using alcohol?
I failed with approx 1.6, 1.8 or so. I did put 30% Methanol in the tank and the CO went down to 0.2% and the NOx also did improve a whole lot. I didn´t notice any driving difference. It is a very clean combustible.
But take care, there are various rubber seals and membranes that need to be changed if you use high alcohol content combustibles for a prolonged time. Also, when the alcohol percentage is high, the car may start to run lean and the system has to readjust. The knocking will be gone, alcohol can withstand 1 : 19 Compression ratio without detonation.
The energy content however is half the amount of gas, so you may need bigger injectors. In order to get the most out of it, you may need to increase compression and change timing.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,147
Likes: 302
From: Timra, Sweden
I am going to use Ethanol now. I tried it last summer but the injectors I had were too small. I have used ethanol in my winter beater for 2 years now.
You need about 30% more fuel volume to the same amount of air.
Mileage will decrease with about 20%.
The power will be about the same or a slight increase.
The major advantage with ethanol is if you have a turbo or supercharger. You can use more boost and timing and still be safe. That will give you more power.
You need about 30% more fuel volume to the same amount of air.
Mileage will decrease with about 20%.
The power will be about the same or a slight increase.
The major advantage with ethanol is if you have a turbo or supercharger. You can use more boost and timing and still be safe. That will give you more power.
Last edited by JoBy; May 31, 2006 at 08:38 AM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,147
Likes: 302
From: Timra, Sweden
No C4 Corvette is certified to use E85.
If you do some research and some minor modifications then it is no problem to use run on 100% E85. It may be illegal to use it.
Fuel hoses will age sooner if they are not made ethanol safe.
You may reduce life of fuel pump and injectors.
If you have a lot of sludge in the fuel tank and fuel lines then you could clogg the fuel filter and injectors.
If you do some research and some minor modifications then it is no problem to use run on 100% E85. It may be illegal to use it.
Fuel hoses will age sooner if they are not made ethanol safe.
You may reduce life of fuel pump and injectors.
If you have a lot of sludge in the fuel tank and fuel lines then you could clogg the fuel filter and injectors.
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Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 386
Likes: 0
From: Ludlow Ma
Originally Posted by JoBy
They add 5% or 10% ethanol and that 'should' be safe for any vehicle.
Ethanol is not at all as corrosive as Methanol.
Ethanol is the stuff you drink on weekends.
Ethanol is not at all as corrosive as Methanol.
Ethanol is the stuff you drink on weekends.
Does someone know what's required?? My friend used to use it in his race car... WHAT GREAT STUFF, you can race with it, and then drink some and then race more and faster, etc!!! 
I like the sounds of it more than I do using electric cars!!!!
And I don't mean 10% or 15% mix either!!!
Last edited by JIMBO7; May 31, 2006 at 12:15 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 40,156
Likes: 45
From: San Pedro CA
the key to any alcohol is having the fuel system ready to deal with it.
the C4 tank has a rubber bladder, that would more than likely be effected by the stuff. Same goes with the rubber fuel lines. then comes the injectors and the tune. the older computer does not have enough power to store a gas setting and an alcohol setting. bet careful with that. once you set it up for e85 or the like, it will pig out on gas.
the C4 tank has a rubber bladder, that would more than likely be effected by the stuff. Same goes with the rubber fuel lines. then comes the injectors and the tune. the older computer does not have enough power to store a gas setting and an alcohol setting. bet careful with that. once you set it up for e85 or the like, it will pig out on gas.
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 40,156
Likes: 45
From: San Pedro CA
Originally Posted by JIMBO7
Right, I know there is a difference between Methanol and Ethanol. Methanol is NOT being considered!! Ethanol is distilled form vegetable matter (potatoes, corn, etc.) It was used in this country many, many moons ago! the German army, in WWII, ran on it after the Allies shut down their petroleum supplies. Now if it used to be used in vehicles and the Germans used it in their vehicles, what did they have to do to convert all their fuel systems in order to protect them from (corrosive?) ethanol alcohol. The reason we stopped using it in the USA was that gasoline was 10 cents a gallon and Ethanol was 20 cents! Producers couldn't compete so they shut down. That's economics. You can make Ethanol in the backyard. Grandpa used to!!! Does someone know what's required?? My friend used to use it in his race car... WHAT GREAT STUFF, you can race with it, and then drink some and then race more and faster, etc!!! I like the sounds of it more than I do using electric cars!!!!
And I don't mean 10% or 15% mix either!!!
Does someone know what's required?? My friend used to use it in his race car... WHAT GREAT STUFF, you can race with it, and then drink some and then race more and faster, etc!!! I like the sounds of it more than I do using electric cars!!!!And I don't mean 10% or 15% mix either!!!
Pro
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 641
Likes: 16
From: O'Fallon MO
I loaded up on it for an emissions test and then when I passed, drove right to the gas station and filled up the last half of the tank with premium. Its a great solvent, probably clean you injectors for a short burst, but with prolonged use will clean all of the accumulated crap out of the fuel system and pump it through your injectors. Not to mention the deterioration of the hoses. Engine Fire anyone?? E85 multifuel vehicles all have correct hoses and components.
I have a E85 03 Suburban. Got 10 mpg on E85, 14 on gasoline. Checked the price of E85 sunday, 2.79/gallon, regular unleaded 2.64/gal. When it first came out it was 20 to 30 cents a gallon cheaper so it was marginally cheaper to use, but now at 15 c a gallon more you would have to be a greenie freak to burn it.
I have a E85 03 Suburban. Got 10 mpg on E85, 14 on gasoline. Checked the price of E85 sunday, 2.79/gallon, regular unleaded 2.64/gal. When it first came out it was 20 to 30 cents a gallon cheaper so it was marginally cheaper to use, but now at 15 c a gallon more you would have to be a greenie freak to burn it.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,211
Likes: 2
From: Dumas Arkansas
This guy from my home state was on the news the other night. He has a diesel truck that he uses 100% vegitable oil for fuel. He said the kit cost about 2,000 to install but he no longer has to diesel. He's been using this for about 3 years with no problems except that the truck smells like he's cooking fish when making long drives.
Also the Indy 500 next year will use 100% ethanol compared to only 10% this past weekend. I don't really understand it yet.
Also the Indy 500 next year will use 100% ethanol compared to only 10% this past weekend. I don't really understand it yet.
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 40,156
Likes: 45
From: San Pedro CA
CART and IRL have been using Methanol for YEARS...
I wish they would run about E90, so they could at least see the fires.
There are a lot of folks out there with diesels that burn vegatable oils. They raid McDonalds grease traps for it!!!!
I wish they would run about E90, so they could at least see the fires.
There are a lot of folks out there with diesels that burn vegatable oils. They raid McDonalds grease traps for it!!!!
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 40,156
Likes: 45
From: San Pedro CA
Originally Posted by hardlight
I loaded up on it for an emissions test and then when I passed, drove right to the gas station and filled up the last half of the tank with premium. Its a great solvent, probably clean you injectors for a short burst, but with prolonged use will clean all of the accumulated crap out of the fuel system and pump it through your injectors. Not to mention the deterioration of the hoses. Engine Fire anyone?? E85 multifuel vehicles all have correct hoses and components.
I have a E85 03 Suburban. Got 10 mpg on E85, 14 on gasoline. Checked the price of E85 sunday, 2.79/gallon, regular unleaded 2.64/gal. When it first came out it was 20 to 30 cents a gallon cheaper so it was marginally cheaper to use, but now at 15 c a gallon more you would have to be a greenie freak to burn it.
I have a E85 03 Suburban. Got 10 mpg on E85, 14 on gasoline. Checked the price of E85 sunday, 2.79/gallon, regular unleaded 2.64/gal. When it first came out it was 20 to 30 cents a gallon cheaper so it was marginally cheaper to use, but now at 15 c a gallon more you would have to be a greenie freak to burn it.
I see E85 as having another series of bennies:
1) Our own national independance.
2) Farmers and farm land back into production.
3) The reduction of the importance of oil as a comodity - which leads directly to ethanol gaining importance.
4) The ability for developing nations to grow their own fuels.
Racer
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 405
Likes: 0
From: 1984 crossfire, Alhaurin de la Torre Malaga, Spain
Originally Posted by bogus
There is no question that E85 is more expensive to make. It might be renewable, but the costs, at this time, are high.
I see E85 as having another series of bennies:
1) Our own national independance.
2) Farmers and farm land back into production.
3) The reduction of the importance of oil as a comodity - which leads directly to ethanol gaining importance.
4) The ability for developing nations to grow their own fuels.
I see E85 as having another series of bennies:
1) Our own national independance.
2) Farmers and farm land back into production.
3) The reduction of the importance of oil as a comodity - which leads directly to ethanol gaining importance.
4) The ability for developing nations to grow their own fuels.
Clean environment
Very clean engines
Smells a whole lot better
But please don´t burn Chivas Reagal in your car.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,147
Likes: 302
From: Timra, Sweden
Originally Posted by bogus
the key to any alcohol is having the fuel system ready to deal with it.
the C4 tank has a rubber bladder, that would more than likely be effected by the stuff. Same goes with the rubber fuel lines. then comes the injectors and the tune. the older computer does not have enough power to store a gas setting and an alcohol setting. bet careful with that. once you set it up for e85 or the like, it will pig out on gas.
the C4 tank has a rubber bladder, that would more than likely be effected by the stuff. Same goes with the rubber fuel lines. then comes the injectors and the tune. the older computer does not have enough power to store a gas setting and an alcohol setting. bet careful with that. once you set it up for e85 or the like, it will pig out on gas.
My tank does not have a rubber bladder, all steel.
You could add an extra fuel pressure regulator on the return line and set that to a higher pressure and plumb a 'bypass' valve parallell to it. Open valve=stock fuel pressure for gas. Closed valve=higher fuel pressure för E85.
An adjustable fuel pressure regulator would also work, but then you need a tool and a fuel pressure gauge when switching fuel.
If you use 40 psi fuel pressure for gas then you should use about 70 psi with E85. That is the only tune you 'need'.
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 40,156
Likes: 45
From: San Pedro CA
Originally Posted by Nico
You forgot (but everyone may know, so you didn´t mention on purpose I guess)
Clean environment
Very clean engines
Smells a whole lot better
But please don´t burn Chivas Reagal in your car.
Clean environment
Very clean engines
Smells a whole lot better
But please don´t burn Chivas Reagal in your car.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,147
Likes: 302
From: Timra, Sweden
Originally Posted by bogus
uh, but fuel pressure does not change the volume at the injector. That requires the computer to know to send more in... all the increased pressure will do is vapourize the liquid better.
Yes it will. At higher pressure the injector flows more fuel if the puse length is the same.
sqrt(p2/p1) will give you the factor of flow increase.
p1 = old pressure
p2 = new pressure
sqrt(70/40) = sqrt(1.75) = 1.32 = 32% more fuel volume.
Close loop with the o2 sensor still works the same.
If you increase fuel pressure and switch to E85, then the computer will not even know that you did anything.
To make the most of it you should adjust cold start parameters and timing too, but it will run just fine even without those modifications. It will be harder to start in cold weather.