Cisco Kid

Thanks,
I appreciate your response. I did check out what you had to say about "Insider Hints" and you were right. I will pay more attention to what I read. You may have just saved me a lot of money. So what company do you recommend? I live in Sacramento Calif.

Sal Collaziano

The car we're talking about getting into the 12s here is a 1991 Corvette Coupe, automatic...

TrplBlk01

No matter what anyone tells you it's up to you to make the changes that you feel will help you the most. Of course you are going to get several opinions but the final choice is yours. What will you pocket book allow? Just do you reasearch and you'll be fine. There are alot of very smart people in here. GOOD LUCK in what ever you do. Keep us posted please!! :cheers:

Nomar116

Lingenfelter

No you dont have to be made of money to afford some of their combos, you just have to be smart. Ill be the first to actually offer a setup for your car that will run 12s.

For starters, I dont know where C4 Rag and others are coming up with making a CROSSFIRE vette run 12s, the question at hand is a 91, the strongest L98 available. Yes vettes were made to run 12's, they area very aerodynamic car and alot of overlooked highend parts (aluminum driveshaft sorta stuff.... as well as very strong trannys) The rear end is the weakest part of the car. I would say to change the stock "dana 36" out for a "dana 44" Its stronger, and a different rear gear of around 3.07-3.45 would allow that stock or lightly moded 91 to reach 13's.
Further I dont claim to be an expert at all, I have talked to those that are and am just passing on what I know. To get the next second off your time is a little more tricky. It can be easily, easily had, by replacing the 350 crankshaft for a 400 crank thus the motor becomes the great "383" that so many members are running. That along with a little head work, a Lingenfelter (Accel) Super Ram intake, Lingenfelter 219 camshaft ( a little lumpy but perfectly drivable, and your easily running 12's. Properly done, no corners cut and 11's are within reach on a car you could drive to work everyday. Talk to those driving the 383s on the forum, let the majority rule.
Paul

Sal Collaziano

That sounds like sound advice. Thanks.. The only part I don't love is the 'bumpy' part. Would that make the car any less smooth? I'm hoping for as close to stock as possible...

Rick86

I know, but I don't have the forum in my bathroom, yet :crazy:

your drinking buddy

How much would it cost to put a 400 crank in a ZZ4 short block thats outside the car already?

C4RAG

Ok, no problem... I can see there are some that will let you try and apply upwards of 400 HP to the stock 700R4 and Dana 36 but from my heart I would ask that you sit on 2 garbage can lids before you hit the gas... That "strong" 700R4 will not make it ( not long at least) nor with the Dana 36... The upgrades underneath and in the engine will cost you plenty and that is just the facts of the matter... Between the sale of your stock vette and the money you are talking you could afford a vette that would come far closer and still retain it's value as Vettes so loyally do... As stated, you do as you wish but it is not just the cheap stuff that you will need to get this to where you seem to want to go... It is heads, intake system complete, injectors, ignition, computer upgrades, a complete exhaust with headers, a Dana 44 rear end, upgraded clutches in your tranny (at the very least) as well as many more little items and then there is the tech to foresee it and then tune it to work....

Adding HP or performance is not that difficult and might be what you are looking for... Pulling 12s on the other hand is mush more of a goal and while you could undoubtedly do it, you might be better off to spend more wisely and buy a ZR1... It will act the way you want and will always remain a ZR1 while you do it... If you think you can not afford it, you have found your answer... Sorry about thinking we were on an 85 vette... The Dana 36 was the point and that alone makes this prospect expensive...

Nomar116

The dana 36 seems to be the only concern most people have. Not speaking from experience, I will be soon though My 383 is hooked up and close to firing. For starters, many 36's were stronger than others, yes its a chance and yes you could blow it, but if so you get a magnificent display. The fact is, not knowing the rear gear in that 91 you plan to purchase, its probably a 2.59 or 2.73. Either way, they suck!! Larger gears are a no brainer for someone who really wants the seat of the pants performance with little loss in drivability. I would say for you the 3.07s would be enough to maintain gas mileage. At the same time you can buy a dana 44 housing for not much more than a 36, and be fine. As for the 700R4, have no fear... If you need to upgrade to comericial clutches, youll soon know, and youll want a shift kit at some point anyway. The point is, the mods to reach 12s are usually done in small shifts, with the major work all done at once. The engine is the most difficult part of any modifications, and done correctly youll find 12s easily and have a very strong and fun to drive car. As for the "lumpy" idle, I refer to the how should I say... race car sound idle.... Lumpy explains it best, but it can be heard on any heavily modded car. The idle is not even, but rather gurgles... I dont know Im using all the wrong words hear, but none the less, where not talking anything major, something that just makes you say nice car, nothing more. The 383 setup is perfect for all of us that want to keep a very sleeper and streetable car, yet be able to run with the best. As for a 400 Crank in a ZZ4.... My machinist got $50 to notch the block $100 to bore 30 over and give another $100 for etc... Make sure you get a one piece rear main seal. Ill say that again, if you buy a crank for the stock block and its around my year a 90.... get a ONE PIECE REAR MAIN SEAL...... I bought what I thought was a one piece, turned out to be a two piece, and ended up paying another $150 to have the block modified, not a good idea btw.... Anyway just my $.02

lcvette

ok, i felt like tossing my two sense in here as well. your motor is apart and in the garage.... this is a good thing if your not in a hurry to get it back right away. L98-----> 12's very doable! cheap? no! arm and leg expensive? depends on your budget and what you think speed should cost. to some, they are suprised to see it only costs so much, and then to others, well some get weak and shaky in the knees when they start adding their list up! i love the L98, as a matter of fact, i am going to dig through my old Corvette Fever subscriptions... anyone remember Jim Montieth? how about low 11's on a stock 350 bottom ended L98 with some miles on it and ported stock heads? it was a 90 six speed with a dana 44 fitted with a 4.56 gear set (i agree with the D44 if more then 400 horse is going through it to the wheels) he hit low 12's with his TPI setup i believe, can verify this shortly with scanned in article. he achieved 10's documented by CF with the ZZ-xx cam and the miniram and slicks. very well documented article of all parts used!! as far as getting 12's in an L98 with no lope, this i think may prove difficult without shooting a big dose of the laughing gas or adding a high PSI charger. but given enough time and money and almost anything may be accomplished. if the motor is out for a rebuild, don't waste time rebuilding it into freshened up 350, take your valuable time and make the investment to a 383 with a minimum of forged pistons (complete forged internals if you deem the car in good enough shape to justify the engine mods) for somewhere near $1000-1200 the components for a 383 with forged pistons can be had including bearings, gaskets and hardware. just shop around. now i will tell you this will open a door to a very expensive quest once you start trying to add components to compliment this buildup, take a look at the signatures of the various members to see who did what, the money begins to add up. i don't agree with all these posts but again thats whats so great about such a diverse forum, you get several different approaches and can choose the setup that you feel will best suit you. a corvette WAS meant to run 12's, so don't be discouraged, some were just equiped to handle it better then others ie.. rearends and trannies.... but these swaps aren't to terribly bad if you shop and are patient. Beach Bum is very well respected member and has done his homework, i would carefully review his website and perhaps drop him a line if you have further questions about his mods. there are several others as well. keep your chin up and the wrenches turning, i am in the same boat as you right now, i just got done spending 10 hours wrenching on mine, the motor is still in her and is staying there, but it is as bare as you can get one still in the car! i have both TPIS books, they are nice shopping catelogs, i agree with that comment, but they do make some good -products as well as some not so good ones. i was an airfoil sucker 2 weeks into my 85 in college, at that time i thought i would jump from 14.8's to 13's after installing a 10 minute part, ignorance is an expensive trait to have!! since then i have learned that dyno numbers and mods are best taken from your fellow modders here on the forum. we are usually excited and want our commrads to benefit from our successes here. well there are a few who keep "secrets" but i think its all in good mirth. happy modding and live by this one rule and things will always be brighter for you, don't cut corners, don't rush it, and think everything through. if your train of thought is "this part will work ok i guess even though i think i should replace it" replace it!! and try to make it into an upgrade, before you know it you will have everything needed to support bigger power adding mods!!! always look for the bottleneck in your setup. this will always change as you fix each update and is non-stop and ongoing. this is a good thing :D good luck and god save, and keep posting your progress, i will be very interested to track your endeavor! thanks!

chris :cheers:


[Modified by lcvette, 10:00 PM 9/1/2001]

Beach Bum

In otherwords, you're saying nobody modify their Corvettes because the tranny and/or rear end might break ?? The Dana 36 is good to right around 1.70 60 foot times with an auto, once you get quicker than that, it can break.... but a Dana 44 is only a $ 1200 investment. Just about all makes and models of vehicles throughout time have to change their rear-end when they start building power. All of those nice looking 60's muscle cars that you see at the dragstrip running in the 11's and quicker typically have an upgraded rearend in the form of a Strange or Ford 9".... point being, a tougher rear end is a given when modifying just about any vehicle. I'm sure you already know the manual L98's already have the Dana 44.

As far as the 700R4....on my current rebuild I have approxmiately 600 1/4 mile passes on it, with the vast majority being in the 11's with a motor than makes well over 400 hp and close to 500 ftlbs of torque, it shows zero signs of failure after all of this time. The 700R4 is tougher than you think, I think you hear about the 700R4 failing in some applications because the tranny was already worn out or an improper re-build. Mine is simply rebuilt to exact GM specfications. As a note, the primary part responsible for the 700R4 failure is the 3-4 clutch pack, which effects the 2-3 shift at wot.... With the proper fluid, cable setting and fluid changes, the 700R4 can last many years on a 400 hp + motor.... even forum member LT401vette's 600 HP 10 second LT-1 is getting a few years of service between rebuilds.... thats impressive.

I think C4 Corvettes are absolutely perfect for making a 400+ hp 1/4 mile car.... reasonable weight, great aerodynamics, chassis is good for 1.5 60's bone stock, and its based upon the tried and true small block chevy.... what more could you want.

btw, how quick do you think the ZR-1 is in the 1/4 mile ?

Sal,

My opinion, I like Superchargers, but I don't like them on top of stock motors. You're basically limited to how much boost you can make with the stock compression and pistons, if you go much higher than 6 psi, you're going to start having heads that rise and pistons that crack. And 6 psi on top of a 240-250 hp motor only brings you up to a little over 300 hp, maybe 350 maximum. You can go a lot farther with a naturally aspirated set-up for about the same price. However, if you're going to get serious about your power and rebuild your short block to accomodate a serious supercharger/intercooler.... you can build a 355 with 8-1 cr, forged everything and push a bunch of air down it to the tune of 10-15 psi, you can really start to make some serious HP with it.... 500 hp and even more is not out of the question.... but then again, you can also do the same naturally aspirated.... your call.

have fun !!
Beach Bum

CORKVETTE1

hey beach you got that tpis book too!! ha ha
anyways check out my link below with a 406 a 350 with the same setup went mid 12s all day long http://hometown.aol.com/aheis46312/myhomepage/auto.html
:cool:

C4RAG

Ok, I have no more time to devote to this tired and sometimes comical matter... If you want the word from someone who is running 12s in a multiport vette check out the site below and instead of comedy you will see that is it not as easy or cheap as people would have you believe... Pay close attention to the upgrades and the whys of what he has had to do... You will soon get the complete picture of what this will take and then you will understand who is trying to help and who is guessing about very important and expensive matters... This man's site should make it clear and as you look, understand that he is there doing it and as intelligent as you will find... As him and none of us and you will have the FACTS and not hopeful dreams... Then do as you see fit and I will wish you all the luck in the world as you go...

P.S. Don't disregard the fact that it is a C3... It is true Multiport and as you'll see, it is not a stock GM TPI unit for good reasons... Pay real close attention to the rear ends section... Yes I said ends not end... Don't assume it is a matter of weight either... The 82 is the second lightest Vette made...

See for yourself

http://home.att.net/~ncarboni/NC82.html

C4RAG

CORKVETTE1 I need a clarification... On what you said, "a 350 with the same setup will run 12s all day", were you saying all of the other mods listed on your site minus the block or are you saying just the intake stuff??

Sal Collaziano

Okay. Well. I can be patient on the road to getting this car into the 12s. My goal is to be close one year from my purchase of the car. First, I will replace anything that needs replacing. From there, I'll start buying components around the engine to give a little boost. I'll probably do intake, exhaust, injectors, throttle body, Dana 44, gears, and stuff like that. After all that's done, I'll start with the motor (Lizzard Performance). I want a supercharger one day so I'll do the rebuild keeping that in mind. I can get a performance 700r4 built for me at S&K Speed. How's that sound?

http://www.skspeed.com http://www.lizzardracing.com

CORKVETTE1

yes that is true a 406 combo will run mid to high 11s
a 350 combo will run mid 12s with ease
a 383 comb will run high 11s to low 12s
and still get great gas mileage too
the 350 got 28mpg
the 406 gets 23.5 mpg not too shabby
all the rest of the parts being the same i know i did them both from expierience not hear say like some of these guys are quoting not to step on anybodys toes :cool:

your drinking buddy

About how much horse power would a ZZ4 short block with a 400 Crank, Super Ram, Lingenfelter 219 cam, and TPIS or Lingenfelter long tube headers make? How much would a 350 make with the other mods mentioned? Can I do the cam and crank now, and wait to do the Super Ram and headers till I get some more money?

Beach Bum

C4rag, I don't understand your point to the referenced webpage ?? Can you clairfy....

Just from glancing at his webpage, the first thing I notice is that the owner truly is a performance enthusiasist based upon his closing comment of: "I can describe every inch of the underside of my car, having rebuilt most of it myself. I drive it so much and have so much fun that I know where every limit is. This is what Corvette ownership is all about"

Sounds to me like he is giving a glaring endorsement of modifying a Corvette.

Secondly, regarding his transmission history..... he first got 60,000 miles out of the stock 700R4, then decided to go with a manual transmission instead, so then converted to a Doug Nash 5 speed, in which he then got 130,000 miles out of it before rebuilding, then he got a "bunch of miles" before grinding the 1st gear, and then he decided he wanted a 6th od gear so he bought a Richmond 6 speed. All of this is not necessary to run 12's.... the stock 700R4 would have been just fine, and quite frankly he would have been quicker with the 700R4 and a good torque converter.

As far as his rearend... he was rebuilding the wrong one... should have gone D44 first time the stock one broke. And I believe there may have been other problems with his stock rear end considering he obviously wasn't running slicks based upon his slow 2.0 60 foot times, in which bone stock C4 corvettes can accomplish. The rear end should not have broke....

A few other notes.... A solid roller cammed 418 cubic inch motor like his should be wayyy into the 11's, but he has a long runnered TPI "First" set-up that chokes the motor thus he his only able to get 12.8's @ 111 mph out of it. He could have stayed with the stock 350 cubic inch motor, and thrown on some AFR heads and the Superram and ran low 12's and possibly even high 11's instead of the wild path he took. btw, do you know why he's running a solid roller cam on a motor that makes its hp peak at roughly 4600-4800 rpm ?

My only point is, that nobody has to go what he went through to run in the 12's.... You can easily run 12's with the stock tranny, stock rearend, and just a top end engine package.... as I have done, and many others on this forum.

Sal,
If you want to run easy 12's.... heres the recipe:

52 mm tb
Superram
AFR 190 heads
Headers
LPE 74219 cam
Sticky tires

This combination will easily get you in the 12's and if you do a lot of the little things you can run low 12's and even high 11's. In addition, this set-up does not require any additional gear... whatever you're currently running is just fine, it will pass the strict CA emissions and you will get 25-30 mileage on the freeway.

Don't let people scare you into thinking once you hit 12's the world is going to explode.... its freakn easy.

cheers,
Beach Bum

Sal Collaziano

Thank, BeachBum. That was an encouraging message. It sounds like I can simply get a rebuild of my 350 - or, if it's not that much more expensive, a little something extra thrown together...

Thanks...

CORKVETTE1

tell him beach i have been trying to tell these guys that i guess your and mine recipe is choped liver i dont know here it is again replace the 406 with a 350 and run mid 12s all day and mine is proof ( I DID THEM BOTH) beachbums comb is similar and he has (DONE IT ALSO) http://hometown.aol.com/aheis46312/myhomepage/auto.html
:D :cool: :cheers: :jester :seeya