Damn Clutch Hydraulics...
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 40,156
Likes: 45
From: San Pedro CA
Damn Clutch Hydraulics...
Yesterday morning, I thought I had the makings of an oil leak, caused by a bad oil pressure sender or switch... nope...
Last night, I cleaned the area, the left rear of the engine, and bell housing with brake cleaner. This morning, the back of the engine was dirty, but the rear of the intake and the oil switches were clean.
This morning, the clutch pedal was soft... I am about as sure as I can be that either the master has blown a seal (please, don't bring it's personal life into this discussion), the line has started leaking, or the cup has cracked.
I will be digging into this deeper tonite (removing the ECM to check the cup). I might be able to fix a crack by cleaning it up and hitting a crack with some RTV... that will hold until I can get a new part.
With all the discussion on clutch hydraulics of late, who has the best part? Raybestos? Mcleod? GM? Other? I have been observing, but the changes are coming fast and furious. First, the GM slaves suck, and then we finally find out why, then we learn the Mcleod parts are suspect.
Where are the best deals?
Thanks!!!
Last night, I cleaned the area, the left rear of the engine, and bell housing with brake cleaner. This morning, the back of the engine was dirty, but the rear of the intake and the oil switches were clean.
This morning, the clutch pedal was soft... I am about as sure as I can be that either the master has blown a seal (please, don't bring it's personal life into this discussion), the line has started leaking, or the cup has cracked.
I will be digging into this deeper tonite (removing the ECM to check the cup). I might be able to fix a crack by cleaning it up and hitting a crack with some RTV... that will hold until I can get a new part.
With all the discussion on clutch hydraulics of late, who has the best part? Raybestos? Mcleod? GM? Other? I have been observing, but the changes are coming fast and furious. First, the GM slaves suck, and then we finally find out why, then we learn the Mcleod parts are suspect.
Where are the best deals?
Thanks!!!
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 777
Likes: 1
From: Fort Worth Texas
Jeff just e-mailed me that partsamerica.com has the master and slave that have the seals installed correctly. Part# CM 39763 master, and CS360017 slave. I e-mailed partsamerica last night and they just answered me back. I asked if these two parts were cast or D.O.M style (GM) as all of the GM style were leaking. Partsamerica did not know and said that Tru-Torque made them and gave me a 1-800 phone number to call. So I just called them and the CSR did not know but would look in to it and e-mail me back
I was told that the Wagner cast parts were OK and I am trying to find who sells Wagner for our Vette's If anyone knows where we can buy Wagner let us know. Never heard of Tru-Torque so I know Jeff is correct about these parts working but I have used Wagner brake hydraulic wheel cylinders for years and never had to take one back.
Louis
I was told that the Wagner cast parts were OK and I am trying to find who sells Wagner for our Vette's If anyone knows where we can buy Wagner let us know. Never heard of Tru-Torque so I know Jeff is correct about these parts working but I have used Wagner brake hydraulic wheel cylinders for years and never had to take one back.
Louis
Last edited by Louis Bartay; Jul 20, 2006 at 12:59 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 24,337
Likes: 25
From: San Diego , CA Double Yellow DirtBags 1985..Z51..6-speed
The cast slaves are supposedly good, the DOM slaves (smooth black ones) are not. Brand doesn't seem to matter. Many of them still have LONG backorders and unforseen availability... where the warehouses are empty and waiting for more production.
The only master cylinder with defects reported is the Mcleod.
Although I have a new cast master and it isn't faring to well. And the stupid cap doesn't even seal. I don't recall who made that, possibly raybestos.
I haven't seen any aftermarket hoses.
The only master cylinder with defects reported is the Mcleod.
Although I have a new cast master and it isn't faring to well. And the stupid cap doesn't even seal. I don't recall who made that, possibly raybestos.
I haven't seen any aftermarket hoses.
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 40,156
Likes: 45
From: San Pedro CA
That was my fear...
I am going to check and hope it's only a bad o-ring on the cup. If that's the case, I will replace accordingly. Even if there is a crack in the cup, no biggie, I will reglue the damned thing!
I am going to check and hope it's only a bad o-ring on the cup. If that's the case, I will replace accordingly. Even if there is a crack in the cup, no biggie, I will reglue the damned thing!
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,285
Likes: 52
From: Jacksonville, FL
St. Jude Donor '08 thru '26
I bid you Bonne chance!
Sorry for the wise crack:o ....I empathize entirely with you Bogus!
The masters sold by Wagner, the cast type, seem to be okay. I bought mine at rockauto & it is doing very well in my car. I added the zip strap to it as they don't come with that item like the OEM/DOM masters. I have two of the cast wagners as I use one to bench bleed my slaves before installation, I also have an extra s/s hose.
The DOM stuff, all of it is by TRW and that's who GM is talking to about the problems with Q/C as they were the prime contractor....who they farmed the stuff out to is a state secret.
I don't know about the aftermarket for the hoses....I used a GM part, $125.00 + shipping from P & G Chevy, partszoneonline.com. It is the new type, s/s braided. I think rock auto has them also.
Tom
I forgot, the S-10 series uses the same parts from what I've learned. I never did try to cross the applications.
The masters sold by Wagner, the cast type, seem to be okay. I bought mine at rockauto & it is doing very well in my car. I added the zip strap to it as they don't come with that item like the OEM/DOM masters. I have two of the cast wagners as I use one to bench bleed my slaves before installation, I also have an extra s/s hose.
The DOM stuff, all of it is by TRW and that's who GM is talking to about the problems with Q/C as they were the prime contractor....who they farmed the stuff out to is a state secret.
I don't know about the aftermarket for the hoses....I used a GM part, $125.00 + shipping from P & G Chevy, partszoneonline.com. It is the new type, s/s braided. I think rock auto has them also.
Tom
I forgot, the S-10 series uses the same parts from what I've learned. I never did try to cross the applications.
Last edited by tomtom72; Jul 21, 2006 at 07:38 AM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 3,014
Likes: 18
From: Raleigh, NC
The stock masters seem to be OK. The failures associated with the stockers seem to be related to age and use. If your master is 10+ years old and been pumped who knows how many thousands of times before it failed I would consider that a normal failure due to age/use. A stock master from gmpartsdirect.com should work just fine for you I would think.
If the line is your problem, you can have one made at any hose supply store. I work at a heavy equipment dealer that assembles hydraulic hoses and we could build the line for you in just a few minutes. It won't have the pre-formed hard line section, but I think a couple zip ties could overcome the problem of using a line made completely of flexible tubing pretty easily.
Let us know how it turns out.
If the line is your problem, you can have one made at any hose supply store. I work at a heavy equipment dealer that assembles hydraulic hoses and we could build the line for you in just a few minutes. It won't have the pre-formed hard line section, but I think a couple zip ties could overcome the problem of using a line made completely of flexible tubing pretty easily.
Let us know how it turns out.
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 40,156
Likes: 45
From: San Pedro CA
I ordered a new hose from Superior Chevy... it will be here Monday.
I will take the old hose and have it fixed.
I am thinking of reengineering the hose... make a longer hard line that gets it closer to the slave, and a replaceable flex line. Thoughts?
I didn't know the S10 used the same part. I might just try to xref that.
Oh, well... off to hope'n it don't burst!!!!
I will take the old hose and have it fixed.
I am thinking of reengineering the hose... make a longer hard line that gets it closer to the slave, and a replaceable flex line. Thoughts?
I didn't know the S10 used the same part. I might just try to xref that.
Oh, well... off to hope'n it don't burst!!!!
Corvette Stories
The Best of Corvette for Corvette Enthusiasts
Every 2027 Corvette Engine Explained
Joe Kucinski
Designer Imagines A Corvette That Looks More Like a Corvette Than the Corvette
Verdad Gallardo
10 Ugly Corvettes That We Still Kinda Love
Joe Kucinski
Top 10 Most Expensive Corvettes Ever Sold on Bring A Trailer
Brett Foote
10 Things Every Corvette Owner Needs (2026 Edition)
Michael S. Palmer
8 Most "Only Corvette Owners Understand" Quirks and Problems
Pouria Savadkouei
10 Reasons the C6 Z06 is Still A Performance Benchmark After 20 Years
Joe Kucinski
How Much Horsepower Every Corvette Engine "LOST" in 1972
Joe Kucinski
Top 10 DOs and DON'Ts for Protecting Your Convertible Top!
Michael S. Palmer
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,285
Likes: 52
From: Jacksonville, FL
St. Jude Donor '08 thru '26
Bogus,
According to what I've seen reprinted, all the e-mails between GM & Bill and Tom Henry Chevy, the S-10 series suv & pick-ups use the same clutch hydraulic system with the same parts. I've never did a cross reference of P/N's....guess I was too busy trying to make a slave that would work longer than 5 mins. in my ZR-1.
That's what I've come to understand is the S-10 uses the same parts in it's system and they are having the same problems...except no one at GM put the two together as one group....each group had a 15% spoillage rate, which GM considers normal...but if the two parts groups are added together it is 30% and now GM wants to know what's up from TRW.
I've had no issues with the two new hydraulic hoses that I bought...but I don't see where you couldn't make one enitrely from braid end to end...proly be easier to work with!
Tom
According to what I've seen reprinted, all the e-mails between GM & Bill and Tom Henry Chevy, the S-10 series suv & pick-ups use the same clutch hydraulic system with the same parts. I've never did a cross reference of P/N's....guess I was too busy trying to make a slave that would work longer than 5 mins. in my ZR-1.
That's what I've come to understand is the S-10 uses the same parts in it's system and they are having the same problems...except no one at GM put the two together as one group....each group had a 15% spoillage rate, which GM considers normal...but if the two parts groups are added together it is 30% and now GM wants to know what's up from TRW.
I've had no issues with the two new hydraulic hoses that I bought...but I don't see where you couldn't make one enitrely from braid end to end...proly be easier to work with!
Tom
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 40,156
Likes: 45
From: San Pedro CA
well, my thinking is that the braided end just doesn't do well near the cat. If I use a hard line that goes farther down to the slave, I can have a shorter braided line, farther from the heat.
I wonder if these parts are available via other sources... hm...
I wonder if these parts are available via other sources... hm...
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
From: Downers Grove IL
Bogus,
I seam to go through one master cyclinder per year. Just last month I replaced the master again, and I broke down and used the GM clutch hydrolic fluid. It has been the only thing that I have not changed in the clutch system. I had been using the DOT 3. My gut tells me that using the GM fluid may solve part of the problem. I have to take the old cyclinders apart to see if the gasket is in there is set correctly and determine if that is the problem.
The parts guy at the local dealership asked if I were I was getting my master cyclinders from, and I indicated the usual MId America, Ecklers, A/C Delco, and a local Vette Shop that sells A/C Delco. He indicated that I was getting all orignial parts. They at lease look the same and appear to manufactured in the UK.
Good Luck, Polo
I seam to go through one master cyclinder per year. Just last month I replaced the master again, and I broke down and used the GM clutch hydrolic fluid. It has been the only thing that I have not changed in the clutch system. I had been using the DOT 3. My gut tells me that using the GM fluid may solve part of the problem. I have to take the old cyclinders apart to see if the gasket is in there is set correctly and determine if that is the problem.
The parts guy at the local dealership asked if I were I was getting my master cyclinders from, and I indicated the usual MId America, Ecklers, A/C Delco, and a local Vette Shop that sells A/C Delco. He indicated that I was getting all orignial parts. They at lease look the same and appear to manufactured in the UK.
Good Luck, Polo
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 40,156
Likes: 45
From: San Pedro CA
made in the UK? that's strange...
I have been using Valvoline Synpower Brake Fluid since day one, and these hydraulics are now 4 years old (amazing, eh? I got a good set).
However, the hose is wacky, and I don't know why mine are failing.
I have been using Valvoline Synpower Brake Fluid since day one, and these hydraulics are now 4 years old (amazing, eh? I got a good set).
However, the hose is wacky, and I don't know why mine are failing.
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 192
Likes: 1
From: Western Washington State
Cruise-In VII Veteran
Originally Posted by bogus
well, my thinking is that the braided end just doesn't do well near the cat. If I use a hard line that goes farther down to the slave, I can have a shorter braided line, farther from the heat.
I wonder if these parts are available via other sources... hm...
I wonder if these parts are available via other sources... hm...
Anyhow, it works fine and seems to be impervious to leaks, so I haven't messed with it. It does require that my slave be mounted 180 degrees around (upside-down basically).
I never realized this was weird until I was replacing my slave cylinder and I couldn't figure out why my bleeder screw was exactly opposite of where zfdoc's website said it should be. So an all-metal line can be done. Whether it should be is another question.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,285
Likes: 52
From: Jacksonville, FL
St. Jude Donor '08 thru '26
Originally Posted by bogus
well, my thinking is that the braided end just doesn't do well near the cat. If I use a hard line that goes farther down to the slave, I can have a shorter braided line, farther from the heat.
I wonder if these parts are available via other sources... hm...
I wonder if these parts are available via other sources... hm...
Tom
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 40,156
Likes: 45
From: San Pedro CA
Originally Posted by Dave89CC2
My car somehow ended up with a clutch hydraulic line made completely out of metal tubing. Probably fabbed up by the cheapskate previous owner (or mechanic of same) who wouldn't spend $100+ for a new OE hose.
Anyhow, it works fine and seems to be impervious to leaks, so I haven't messed with it. It does require that my slave be mounted 180 degrees around (upside-down basically).
I never realized this was weird until I was replacing my slave cylinder and I couldn't figure out why my bleeder screw was exactly opposite of where zfdoc's website said it should be. So an all-metal line can be done. Whether it should be is another question.
Anyhow, it works fine and seems to be impervious to leaks, so I haven't messed with it. It does require that my slave be mounted 180 degrees around (upside-down basically).
I never realized this was weird until I was replacing my slave cylinder and I couldn't figure out why my bleeder screw was exactly opposite of where zfdoc's website said it should be. So an all-metal line can be done. Whether it should be is another question.
Maybe he had the same problems with the hoses!
I can't wait to get under there and check, but, I suspect the problem is that the hose might get wacked by debris, or, gets overheated... or is just junk.
all I know is that I have fluid on the back of the block, below the heads, and there is no way in hell that all of that was caused by a leaky valve cover, that quickly. Especially when you take into consideration that the heads are still clean!
Race Director
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 12,597
Likes: 237
From: Bartlett Illinois
the Tru Torque parts are cast, I had one of each..
IF you can get a DOM Slave then just fixed the seal, easy to do.
As fo rthe MAsters I went through 7 Carquest Masters ( all leaked externally) which are raybestos parts. I finally took the guts from # 7 and installed them in my 8 year old slave (works fine)
You could try to order rebuild kits from Rockauto for your master slave if it comes to that.. As long as the body welds are not leaking it should still be good. I am going on 3 weeks with my vette and it is working fine
IF you can get a DOM Slave then just fixed the seal, easy to do.
As fo rthe MAsters I went through 7 Carquest Masters ( all leaked externally) which are raybestos parts. I finally took the guts from # 7 and installed them in my 8 year old slave (works fine)
You could try to order rebuild kits from Rockauto for your master slave if it comes to that.. As long as the body welds are not leaking it should still be good. I am going on 3 weeks with my vette and it is working fine
Racer
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 271
Likes: 0
From: New Freedom PA
Clutch Hyd Parts
Help ALL C4 6speed owner's,
My head is spinning from all this clutch info , please tell me what the best master cylinder and slave clylinder numbers are , and where to purchase them localy. any help appreciated , My 92 is DEAD until its fixed. I would like to do the whole job just once.
thanks Desert
My head is spinning from all this clutch info , please tell me what the best master cylinder and slave clylinder numbers are , and where to purchase them localy. any help appreciated , My 92 is DEAD until its fixed. I would like to do the whole job just once.
thanks Desert
Last edited by Desert1957; Oct 6, 2006 at 08:49 AM.
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,348
Likes: 233
From: SCMR Rat Pack'r Charter Member..Great Bend KS
Hey, guys...ALL the stock and replacement clutch cylinders (master and slave) are cast, if you are talking about the manufacturing process used to make them.
Buy whatever is handy, check to make sure the seals are installed properly, install it, bleed it, and drive on!! Don't get too hung up on the brand...they're probably all made by the same manufacturer anyway.
It's all good.
Larry
code5coupe
Buy whatever is handy, check to make sure the seals are installed properly, install it, bleed it, and drive on!! Don't get too hung up on the brand...they're probably all made by the same manufacturer anyway.
It's all good.
Larry
code5coupe
Last edited by rocco16; Oct 6, 2006 at 09:53 AM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 777
Likes: 1
From: Fort Worth Texas
clutch
www.zfdoc.com go to this site and call Bill he will tell you what to do. I am going to buy GM parts when they restock and send them to zfdoc and for $35.00 he will bench bleed and test both parts and make sure the seal is installed correctly from the factory. Call Bill.
Louis
Louis
Racer
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 271
Likes: 0
From: New Freedom PA
No Parts in stock?
Just a follow up to my other entry this morning.
I checked with all the stores in my area (Advanced Auto , PeP Boys , Parts America , Napa , Salvo , and my local Chevy dealer) Guess What?
the clutch Slave I need cannot be found anywhere , said it was Backordered. They also could not tell me when I might be able to purchase one. You think maybe someone realized they have a problem with the seals in Backwards?
This is Fun , Cannot drive my ride until (Only God Knows When) the parts come in. any suggestions welcomed.
Desert
I checked with all the stores in my area (Advanced Auto , PeP Boys , Parts America , Napa , Salvo , and my local Chevy dealer) Guess What?
the clutch Slave I need cannot be found anywhere , said it was Backordered. They also could not tell me when I might be able to purchase one. You think maybe someone realized they have a problem with the seals in Backwards?
This is Fun , Cannot drive my ride until (Only God Knows When) the parts come in. any suggestions welcomed.
Desert