speed density and camshafts
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,146
Likes: 3
From: The Motor City
MO here,
I believe it is important to understand what you are seeing in a data log. What I think can create issues in a mail order tune has to do with how one data logs and the equipment being used. In closed loop, building a good low, mid VE table depends on various RPM'S being held, similar conditions, and combined with AFR numbers to work with.
While possibly some combo's can be tuned by taking 10% off the inj. width or blm, even doing it yourself you will need to take the time for some good datalogging to make this effective. Using VE master is not the answer it leaves holes and in the general not the best way.
I think guys like Alvin and TJ, and others can get you pretty close (maybe around 124 where BLM is concerned), PROVIDED you can give appropriate logs to work with, and then being able to understand through monitoring the effect of the changes that have been made.
From all the posts I have read by both they are willing to work with guys through retuning till it is to ones liking. I don't think you need to be a "tuner" to mod a car.....having an understanding certainly helps.
Just my02
I believe it is important to understand what you are seeing in a data log. What I think can create issues in a mail order tune has to do with how one data logs and the equipment being used. In closed loop, building a good low, mid VE table depends on various RPM'S being held, similar conditions, and combined with AFR numbers to work with.
While possibly some combo's can be tuned by taking 10% off the inj. width or blm, even doing it yourself you will need to take the time for some good datalogging to make this effective. Using VE master is not the answer it leaves holes and in the general not the best way.
I think guys like Alvin and TJ, and others can get you pretty close (maybe around 124 where BLM is concerned), PROVIDED you can give appropriate logs to work with, and then being able to understand through monitoring the effect of the changes that have been made.
From all the posts I have read by both they are willing to work with guys through retuning till it is to ones liking. I don't think you need to be a "tuner" to mod a car.....having an understanding certainly helps.
Just my02
Last edited by mseven; Jul 31, 2006 at 01:42 PM.
Drifting
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,730
Likes: 1
From: Charlotte NC
St. Jude Donor '05
Originally Posted by anesthes
Yeah I looked at the engine combo. Sounds similar to one of my older setups about 10 years ago.
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/di...ght=pcmforless
^^ Looks like some combo's even Alvin won't do, and recommends the guy do it himself.
-- Joe
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/di...ght=pcmforless
^^ Looks like some combo's even Alvin won't do, and recommends the guy do it himself.
-- Joe
Drifting
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,730
Likes: 1
From: Charlotte NC
St. Jude Donor '05
Originally Posted by 93 ragtop
Joe, why did Alvin not want to tune it? If you did not find out why I suspect it has to do with this being a TBI setup. I know he wont do 84 corvettes for that reason.
Its not that its TBI its just that it was a pretty unusual setup that I didn't have a base file for. I turn down stuff all the time.. If I haven't done a few of them and am not confident in how they will turn out I'll turn them down. If the guy persist on getting a mail order tune I'll set them up stuff to do the tuning via email. That way I can work with the guy over a few revisions with datalogs and get him the best tune possible. I literally did this as late as yesterday evening to a guy in AUS with a built TPI vette.
Safety Car
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,290
Likes: 140
From: Salem NH
Originally Posted by Alvin
Are you bashing me because I won't do a mail ordersetup on something I'm not sure I can do a good job on? Would you rather me take money from everyone even if I wasn't confident I can do the best job?
-- Joe
Safety Car
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,290
Likes: 140
From: Salem NH
Originally Posted by 93 ragtop
Joe, why did Alvin not want to tune it? If you did not find out why I suspect it has to do with this being a TBI setup. I know he wont do 84 corvettes for that reason.
But to start fresh on a radical motor with no baseline via mail, no way. Which is most likely why Alvin declined. Which is the point I'm trying to make, but some of you people are just too thick to get it.
-- Joe
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 5,713
Likes: 105
From: Manassas VA
Hey Joe, Im not the one who is being thick here. I would rather a tuner tell me no because he is not confident in his work then take my money and do a poor job.
By the way, this post was not about you or your car. Obviously there was a reason Alvin choose not to take your money. The orig. post is for a car with a .390 and .410 lift cam. That is not a radical setup. Again I suggest that he contact Alvin at www.pcmforless.com about his tuning needs and not listen to someone who wants to go off calling others Thick etc, because a tuner does not want to do (in your own words) a radical car by mail.
Joe, I edit this post to let you know there is another supporting tuner on this forum. http://www.azzatochips.com/ Give him a try!! He may be able to tune your Buick.
By the way, this post was not about you or your car. Obviously there was a reason Alvin choose not to take your money. The orig. post is for a car with a .390 and .410 lift cam. That is not a radical setup. Again I suggest that he contact Alvin at www.pcmforless.com about his tuning needs and not listen to someone who wants to go off calling others Thick etc, because a tuner does not want to do (in your own words) a radical car by mail.
Joe, I edit this post to let you know there is another supporting tuner on this forum. http://www.azzatochips.com/ Give him a try!! He may be able to tune your Buick.
Last edited by 93 ragtop; Jul 31, 2006 at 02:27 PM.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,227
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta Ga
i contacted alvin, told him what i had, and are in process of setting it up where i can drive my car to him for the tuning....
Originally Posted by 93 ragtop
Hey Joe, Im not the one who is being thick here. I would rather a tuner tell me no because he is not confident in his work then take my money and do a poor job.
By the way, this post was not about you or your car. Obviously there was a reason Alvin choose not to take your money. The orig. post is for a car with a .390 and .410 lift cam. That is not a radical setup. Again I suggest that he contact Alvin at www.pcmforless.com about his tuning needs and not listen to someone who wants to go off calling others Thick etc, because a tuner does not want to do (in your own words) a radical car by mail.
Joe, I edit this post to let you know there is another supporting tuner on this forum. http://www.azzatochips.com/ Give him a try!! He may be able to tune your Buick.
By the way, this post was not about you or your car. Obviously there was a reason Alvin choose not to take your money. The orig. post is for a car with a .390 and .410 lift cam. That is not a radical setup. Again I suggest that he contact Alvin at www.pcmforless.com about his tuning needs and not listen to someone who wants to go off calling others Thick etc, because a tuner does not want to do (in your own words) a radical car by mail.
Joe, I edit this post to let you know there is another supporting tuner on this forum. http://www.azzatochips.com/ Give him a try!! He may be able to tune your Buick.
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Team Owner
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 21,473
Likes: 356
From: Palmdale, Ca----- 2009 Cyber Gray 4LT A6 F55 452 RWHP 422 RWTQ- RIP 1998 C5 734 RWHP & 585 RWTQ-----
Originally Posted by anesthes
If you don't know how to tune an engine, you shouldn't be modding a car.
Thats the point. Paying a local guy to tune it, thats no problem. Paying someone 3,000 miles away? c'mon.
But your obviously not a tuner, or you wouldn't be debating this.
-- Joe
Thats the point. Paying a local guy to tune it, thats no problem. Paying someone 3,000 miles away? c'mon.
But your obviously not a tuner, or you wouldn't be debating this.
-- Joe
A lot of guy's can tweak an Engine to the max and then squeeze some more out of it and not be able to tweak a chip! and there are guys that cannot tweak an engine but can tweak a chip to complement the engine that has been built!
It's not fair to say that, many want to be able to custome tune a chip but just are not able too or have the means or the time to trial and error custom tunning a chip when it is at one's disposal to have a professional tunner or even a close friend with the knowledge do it right for you the first time!
Others will buy a fully modified engine a tune a chip accordingly! and we don't rag on them that they did not build the motor themself! DO WE?
Be careful when calling others out! myself included.
Thanks,Matt
Safety Car
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,290
Likes: 140
From: Salem NH
Originally Posted by 93 ragtop
Hey Joe, Im not the one who is being thick here. I would rather a tuner tell me no because he is not confident in his work then take my money and do a poor job.
By the way, this post was not about you or your car. Obviously there was a reason Alvin choose not to take your money. The orig. post is for a car with a .390 and .410 lift cam. That is not a radical setup. Again I suggest that he contact Alvin at www.pcmforless.com about his tuning needs and not listen to someone who wants to go off calling others Thick etc, because a tuner does not want to do (in your own words) a radical car by mail.
Joe, I edit this post to let you know there is another supporting tuner on this forum. http://www.azzatochips.com/ Give him a try!! He may be able to tune your Buick.
By the way, this post was not about you or your car. Obviously there was a reason Alvin choose not to take your money. The orig. post is for a car with a .390 and .410 lift cam. That is not a radical setup. Again I suggest that he contact Alvin at www.pcmforless.com about his tuning needs and not listen to someone who wants to go off calling others Thick etc, because a tuner does not want to do (in your own words) a radical car by mail.
Joe, I edit this post to let you know there is another supporting tuner on this forum. http://www.azzatochips.com/ Give him a try!! He may be able to tune your Buick.
I also know Jesse fairly well. He used to post on our board (thirdgen.org) and was a great contributor, until some people piled against him and he was booted off..
-- Joe
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,471
Likes: 2
From: 1993 Quasar Blue 'vert Scottsdale AZ
Originally Posted by vader86
What a f'king stupid statement.
Safety Car
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,290
Likes: 140
From: Salem NH
Originally Posted by Lichen
Man, that's what I was thinking. I can't burn a new chip, but there are a lot of good tuners out there. Just find one before you do the mods.
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/di...ack-magic.html
-- Joe
Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 766
Likes: 0
From: Mooresville NC
Originally Posted by anesthes
I do. And I think others should too..
-- Joe
-- Joe
Purchase $500 in software, go through lots of frustration, tune your own car and possibly damage it, not be able to solve difficult problems just because of inexperience, and not see maximum gains...
or..
Pay a professional $155 with years of experience with dyno & mail tuning, who has seen every possible combination, to work with you until your satisfied, to squeeze every drop of power out of the car...
DIY tuning is not for everyone.
Just as some people would just as soon pay someone to install a cam, some would rather pay someone else to tune. So if you are going to turn your nose up at people who won't tune themselves - you better start also acting haughty towards those who pay others for labor - and that is about 75% of this board.
Safety Car
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,290
Likes: 140
From: Salem NH
Originally Posted by keliente
Hmmm...
Purchase $500 in software, go through lots of frustration, tune your own car and possibly damage it, not be able to solve difficult problems just because of inexperience, and not see maximum gains...
Purchase $500 in software, go through lots of frustration, tune your own car and possibly damage it, not be able to solve difficult problems just because of inexperience, and not see maximum gains...
Originally Posted by keliente
start also acting haughty towards those who pay others for labor - and that is about 75% of this board.
Anyway. I'm done. whatever. Never in my life have I gone somewhere and found people so against learning. I made a mistake, I'm sorry, you won't hear my advice on this topic again.
-- Joe
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,518
Likes: 19
Originally Posted by anesthes
It's not $500 and you know it. c'mon.. You can even use the free stuff now from magnus (tunerpro). $35 aldl cable, $175 for a ostrich to do real-time tuning, or cheap out and buy a $75 chip burner and some chips..
I am noticing that about 75% or more of Vette owners can't turn a wrench. It's kinda odd going from a fbody board where guys build just about anything, to the vette board. I figured, better car, i'd run into all sorts of amazing guys. so far all I've run into is fat rich white guys who don't do their own work, yet prance around acting like the engineered some 10 second machine when all they did was lay down the plastic.
Anyway. I'm done. whatever. Never in my life have I gone somewhere and found people so against learning. I made a mistake, I'm sorry, you won't hear my advice on this topic again.
-- Joe
I am noticing that about 75% or more of Vette owners can't turn a wrench. It's kinda odd going from a fbody board where guys build just about anything, to the vette board. I figured, better car, i'd run into all sorts of amazing guys. so far all I've run into is fat rich white guys who don't do their own work, yet prance around acting like the engineered some 10 second machine when all they did was lay down the plastic.
Anyway. I'm done. whatever. Never in my life have I gone somewhere and found people so against learning. I made a mistake, I'm sorry, you won't hear my advice on this topic again.
-- Joe
Elite Torch Red Member
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 57,805
Likes: 23
From: Exit 89 GSP,Lakewood,NJ The Land Of Mojo
Cental/South NJ Events Coordinator
CI 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12 Vet
CI-II Burnout & Drag Champ
St. Jude Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07
While I agree that more of us should learn to tune, that doesn't mean we have to.
I've read a bunch of books just so I'll know what the hell people are talking about, I've got a long way to go yet.
Modding a car requires tuning, that's a given, but not everyone has to do it themselves which is why we have Alvin, Jesse and Shalin among a few others who are now dedicated to the LS series of engines.
Bashing people because they don't know how to tune is not cool, just as bashing something you don't know how to do is not cool.
We are not here to bash anything or anyone. We are here to help as much as possible and if we can't, point you in the right direction.
So that being said, I'm asking the original poster to start this over and keep the replies on topic and civil.
I've read a bunch of books just so I'll know what the hell people are talking about, I've got a long way to go yet.
Modding a car requires tuning, that's a given, but not everyone has to do it themselves which is why we have Alvin, Jesse and Shalin among a few others who are now dedicated to the LS series of engines.
Bashing people because they don't know how to tune is not cool, just as bashing something you don't know how to do is not cool.
We are not here to bash anything or anyone. We are here to help as much as possible and if we can't, point you in the right direction.
So that being said, I'm asking the original poster to start this over and keep the replies on topic and civil.