Rich,

Some of the C4 zf's came with a needle bearing pilot bearing, instead of the bronze bushing types. The early, 89 & 90's. I think that by 91 that set up was replaced by a fluted bronze bushing. Reason: customer complaints of low pitched growl w/clutch out & box in neutral. I know all the ZR-1's had this issue, we have a library of TSB's @ our registry site.

Maybe it's not the T/O (release bearing) that you hear. This is where I run out of knowledge. I understand that a T/O usually makes a higher pitched squeal as it runs dry &/or fails. Trans r&r is only soloution to r&r T/O and/or pilot, sorry. I know that pain, too.

As Bill Boudreau says, the zf6 should shift like butter if the hydraulics are up to snuff...if anything is marginal, it behaves like we all think a truck transmission should...it is a truck trans! Your diagnosis about what you think you "feel", loss of hydraulic pressure, is correct. The slave seal is proly in backwards. The hose is not too bad. I had to stare at it awhile to visualize it's path & on my zf it's intermediate support point at the back of my block. I wish I could tell you more specifically about a L motored C4's set up. It can't be that different than an LT5.

To do my hose I took out the battery, gave me a ton of room to see & work. There is an attachment point on the front face of the fire wall, low down under the P/B booster and a bit towards the tunnel, 7mm w/ a clip to hold the line, then I have a clamp at the back of the block and then from there it goes down to the slave. The fittings on the line are 14mm....please use a flare wrench. I snaked the hose first, but didn't attach it to either slave or master. I got it in position along the route and started with the fire wall clamp, in but not tightened, then went back to master & threaded that end in & tight while checking the fire wall clamp & try to make the hose relax w/no kinks. Did the slave end fitting and last was the block clip. The new GM hose is s/s braided so it's pretty much a one time deal, my OEM hose was rubber!

Sorry to be so long, again!
Good luck and if you think you don't want to take the slave apart to fix the seal? Bill Boudreau will do it for a small fee, e-mail him & ask.

Tom

 

your info rocks as always Tom, thank you SO much for all your help with this, and never apoligise for a long reply to me hehe.

I plan on emailing Bill when I get home tonight, I'm on my laptop at my GF's, so I don't have access to my normal email.

I so wish I lived closer to Bill, my car would have been there a week ago so I didn't have to play 20 questions over the forums, I could hand him the keys and have him tell me 1st hand.

I'm going to have to look and see if my OEM hose is rubber or SS, since mine is a 96, it may have the newer one..if I'm lucky....which I'm usually not heh.

Thanks again, and I'll continute to keep everyone (even tho I think you are the only one who reads this) informed.

Rich


SIDENOTE: I saw my first ZR1 yesterday, at the party there were 420 corvettes, 10 GS, tons of C5 Z06, and about 20 C6 Z06...... but only 1, ZR1. I got to talk to the owner, who bought it brand new at full price in 92, and it only has 15k on it.... was the nicest car at the show imho.

 

Hi Rich,

First thanks for the kudos....I'm just trying to participate positively at our forum...I'm a C4 rookie so I've learned soooo much from just reading threads I feel guilty!

Yea, I'm a big fan of the ZR-1!

Oh, since missery loves company....my new clutch master is doing the thru the wall leak......again! I'm getting so tired of this I'm thinking of putting velcro on all the parts I need to r&r to change out the stupid hyd system parts!!

It's such a shame that it is so difficult to find parts that a made well. I don't blame anyone but the people that make the stuff. I bought a new brake master cylinder about four months ago....I lost some fluid out of the rear reservior so I pulled the huch panel down to see what was up & it's doing the thru the wall leak...soooo then I figure "while I'm here let's check the clutch master's push rod"...fluid there too!

Oh, yours being a 96 you should have the s/s hose, the rubber was disconned by 92 as a specific application part, I think.

Tom

 

I'm starting to have my patience tried with my car. I love it, its not going anywhere, but between the clutch hyd, every peice of weatherstrip on the car, seats, carpet, and a few other things all needing to be done, not to mention the desire to start modding at any second, all on a shoestring budget, is getting hard.

The car also needs paint, and I got 2 quotes, 1 for $6800.00 and change(I paid 7300 for the car) and it would take 2 months.

The other who gave me the quote told me to sell it and buy a C5.....that pissed me off.

I know I just semi-hijacked my own thread, I just needed to bitch a little bit.

Now I'm off to order shocks! lol.

I'm sorry to hear you're going through it all again, I'd be at the 12th level of pissedom by now if I were you.

 

On all the points!

I have to laugh....or I'll shoot the car! I hear ya about the crack about the C5....oh well some like blondes & some....

Hey thanks for letting me vent in your thread!


Tom

 

STOP DRIVING THE CAR

The only thing you should be scared of is how much damage you've done to your synchros shifting with a hanging clutch.



You described the clutch slowly engaging with your foot to the floor. If there is no loss of fluid from this, then your primary seal in the clutch master cylinder is leaking. Don't buy the seal kit (if they even make one), it's only a bandaid. One of your clutch cylinders is probably scored from debris and will need to be replaced.

Why have you not checked the footwell yet for leaks? It takes about 30 seconds to check. Pull back the floormat and carpet, check for dampness on the clutch pedal arm or carpet insulation. We can't help you if you don't help yourself.

You can also buy a cheap floor jack and a pair of jackstands from PepBoys for about $25-$40. This is the only way you're going to get a good look at the slave cylinder. You really should unbolt it from the bellhousing to look at it internally for leaks.

Hydraulic leaks can be intermittent, believe it or not, and I guarantee you, the problem will not get better on its own.

You're not allowed complain about your patience being tried until you actually start working on the car.

 

Sorry about that, I looked back in my posts to try to prove you wrong and I guess I never posted it, I checked for the thru-wall leak the same day I said I hadn't yet.

After I posted that I went out and checked, and there was no sign of fluid loss from there.

Thats why I went with my guess of the system being low through evaporation from not being checked in 10 years, added some, and then the amount I added displaced air in the lines causing it to be a little low the second time.

I have checked the fluid levels 5 times since the 2nd fill and not once has it been low.

It's not the lack of tools to raise the car to check the slave, its a lack of location. I live on 4 acres on a cypress lake, I have no driveway or garage, and there isn't 1 peice of ground here I would concider stable enough to raise a car that I'm going to climb under.

I know it wont get better on its own, but thats why I'm here, trying to get information on what it probably is, instead of throwing parts at it.

I've also noticed, when I first start driving it, the shifting is 100% smooth and perfect, it is as the drive goes on that it begins to get a little notchy to get it in gear. There is no noise associated with gear canges at any time. If it were grinding at all it would have been on a lift and torn apart when it first happened.

Also, new cargo shade, door panels, outer window sweeps, reverse lights, fog lamps, radiator cleaning, console door, window adjustments, and some other minor things constitutes me working on it.

I just havn't done anything seriously mechanical to it, as this clutch issue, is the only mechanical issue it has (knock-knock)

 

Rich,

The new style hose, s/s braided, has a long metal pre-formed section going from the master down past the fire wall mount. The braided part doesn't start until it jumps from the fire wall to the mounting point at the rear of the block.

Having never looked closely at an LT1/4/98 I can't say for sure if you could see the s/s braided section on that motor install. On an LT5 I can look down at the left rear of my motor, past the cam cover & thru the forest of the engine harness & just make out the s/s braid as it is in the clip at the rear of the motor. I don't know for sure on your LT?. I would think that you could see the hose by looking in about the same spot. If the battery is out you can see the braided part very easily by looking straight thru the empty battery tray.

Another point I would like to stress about the ava replacement parts is that I've not heard anything about a resolution to the quality problems by the parties involved. I know Bill says "all three parts" should be done at once. Normally I would not dispute that but things being what they are if the master is not leaking I would just buy a slave for now, send it to Bill for the treatment and when installing it I would remove all the fluid from the master & let the line drain. I think then you could re-fill with fresh GM fluid & get the system as full as possible before bleeding it as per the FSM instructions. I would also not bottom out the pedal when starting the bleed. Short slow strokes till the pressure builds enough to break the plastic slave push rod retainer. You will know when it breaks, I can hear it on my car & feel it in my hand on the pedal. After it breaks the system will be ready for the FSM bleed steps. In theory, in my 90's FSM, the system is self bleeding: just slowly and with varying pedal stroke depths you pump the pedal while checking the fluid for level & air bubbles. No bubbles = system bleed out.

I use a phoenix V12 injector so I can reverse bleed the system from the slave up....it's a pia but I'm not moving anything till I know the air is mostly out, mostly. After I use the FSM steps to complete the bleed. However, since I've had so many parts I have a good master & hose that I use on the bench to load the slave partially, not breaking the plastic retainer, just to reduce the time to "inject" the installed system. The reason I do the least amount of pedal pushing on a semi-dry system is I'm fearful of damage to any seals moving in dry bores & also going to the end of the bore where the finish may not be so great. God I hope I'm explaining myself so you get what I'm trying to say!

Good luck

Tom

Rich, did you actually pull out the driver's knee bolster and look up at the clutch push rod for fluid trace? If not please do so. It's a bit of a PIA but...well just do me the favor...it's the only way to know for sure...trust me on that one.

 

I get it 100%. Is there any chance I cold order a slave direct from Bill that he has already went over and made sure its correct?

Also, I just found out, there is a shop about an hour south of me that my club uses, and for club members, on off hours he will let you use a lift for free, and lend a hand on anything you need done. Since I can't raise my car this might be my best bet of not getting killed on paying for an install, and being able to make sure its correct myslef.

How many bottles of the GM fluid does the system hold? I bought 1 just incase I need to top off, after you told me about the DOT 3 squeek...man..that GM stuff is pricy compared to DOT 3, but what the vette wants, she gets

Thanks for the tips on bleeding/filling too, I've never done that before, and as of right now, I'm without a FSM. Watching one on ebay that ends in 20 mins tho.

Thanks again for all your help. If you ever make it to FL, ima treat you to all the alcohol, food, and strippers you can handle

Rich

 

One bottle is enough & yes it's $$$ but what isn't at the dealer parts counter...right?

You're lucky to have found those guys!
Buy them whatever they drink & go to it. Heck you only need the lift for the slave swap. The master you could change out before you go over there. Don't need the car up in the air to swap masters.

I don't know if Bill stocks anything but it's for sure worth the e-mail to inquire....I would.

Thanks! I would be delighted to hoist a few with ya!

 

Great info! I'm experiencing the same problems with my clutch. Filling the fluid resiviour about every few times i drive. I'm going to need to fix very soon too.

 

If you buy a slave cyl online and have it delivered to me I will reverse the seal free of charge and ship it back to you, you pay shipping.

Rockauto.com is probably the cheapest place to buy it.

 

thanks VERY much CentralCoaster! I appreciate it!

I've emailed Bill at ZFDoc describing my symptoms, and asking him if he has any correct slaves in stock, I'll let you know when he gets back to me (hopefully soon)

Also, GREAT link for rock auto, that place is CHEAP!

 

Well, I got my email from Bill..

SO, how hard is it to replace the master? I'm still hunting a FSM for a decent price, but I know shortly I'm gonna end up just buying one from helms.

EDIT: I just looked at it in my Haynes manual, Master seems to be a semi-easy job. But without being able to get under the car its pretty much useless, as my only option would be replace the master myself, then have it towed somewhere to do the slave and bleed... seems like a waste to me.

 

He is by far one of the class gents involved in our hobby!

The master is not bad even the first time it's done....ask me I know!

Here is what I do & remember you still should have the Helm FSM...pricey but worth it, nuff said.

R & R battery: gill panel(fender panel?) off by two 10mm bolts at door seam, one top, one bottom. Don't loose the top shim & remember how it's positioned. Put the shim back wrong & you hit the door edge. R & R the torx screws on rear inner wheel house. On my car I have to r&r my rockers to make it easy to get to bottom 10mm bolt which you just loosen, fender tab is slotted & top tab(with the shim) is a hole so bolt comes out. That bolt is under the weather strip a bit, just move it out of the way.

After panel is off you take battery out. Now you are looking right at the clutch master. Now go in the car & take down the carpet hush panel(knee bolster). Carpet has 7mm screws, two diff lenghts on my 90 don't mix'em up. Two screws at side by door opening and I have three more longer screws on section under the wheel. Two up top left & right of collumn and one low down in the center. On a 90 the ALDL connector is attached to the hush panel to the right of the collumn, 7mm screw, remove same & set ALDL aside. Pull panel to rear of car & down, gently. The interior light wiring has to be unplugged, after that panel comes out. That's on my 90, later models I don't know. Reach up & unfasten the push rod clip...

Back to master. Two 13mm x 3" bolts, plus the spacer hold it to fire wall. I do the line fitting before the bolts. I break it free & then just tighten it enough to not leak, then I do the bolts. The outboard bolt is easy, the inboard is a bit tougher. I use a swivel 13mm socket on a 4" extension & get on it from where the battery would be if it was in. It is just tight working & that's what makes it a bit of a pia....once ya do it it's easy the next time! Last thing is discon the line. Make note of how the spacer was put in so you put it back the same way. It helps to have those rubber plugs or suck out the fluid before starting and have a rubber cap for the line...stuff gets everywhere if the system is full.

Hope that helps!

Tom