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How cold can I go?...

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Old Feb 9, 2007 | 04:08 AM
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Default How cold can I go?...

I am considering driving to an area where the low temps will be in the low 20's, high teens...I only run one gallon of anti freeze in my system..the rest is distilled water and two bottles of water wetter...

I also have a 160* thermostat...if I was to be in an area this cold for 3 days and two nights will the car and block be OK?...I realize I probably won't have any heat with the 160 thermo... ..bear in mind that down here it hasn't been below 48 degrees in years...
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Old Feb 9, 2007 | 05:51 AM
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I think you will be okay for the exact conditions you describe Fuzzy but personally I wouldn't take the chance. One problem being that good old mother nature is never all that predictable, as a fellow Floridian I know you can relate to that! Seems like that concentration of antifreeze would be risky if it got much colder, I'd add some then adjust after returning home if you see the car running too hot. You will be kicking yourself if you lose the gamble.
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Old Feb 9, 2007 | 06:27 AM
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Get a antifreeze tester from your local automotive store.This way you will know for sure(in case it gets colder).Some people in NY use a 160 stat and will get heat (not as much as a 180 stat)
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Old Feb 9, 2007 | 07:51 AM
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i would add more coolant... but thats just me
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Old Feb 9, 2007 | 09:37 AM
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And don't forget: if you're running "summer tires", they're going to be squirrely for quite some time until they warm up first thing in the day (if they ever warm up). Which means, taking off from a lite and/or going around a corner, you could start to lose it.
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Old Feb 9, 2007 | 09:54 AM
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If the car was in a semi-warm garage at night, I would drive it.
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Old Feb 9, 2007 | 10:02 AM
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Thanks folks...I've got a guy who can test it for me so I'll run by his place...I am a bit worried about the tires...never thought about that...I run Nitto DR's full time...they are about 50% used up...cold roads and DR's...hmmmm

BTW, it will be outside the whole time (motel)...
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Old Feb 9, 2007 | 10:33 AM
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Easy, just do this simple calculation everytime it gets cold.

In this article, we will explore the chemical basis of how antifreeze (ethylene glycol) lowers the freezing point of water. We will also discuss the amount of antifreeze required to protect your vehicle to -40˚C by using some fundamental chemical calculations. If you are not interested in the calculations, simply go to the very end of this article to see the proper percentage of antifreeze as compared to water (it is not simply 50/50 !!).

ΔT(freeze) = K(freeze) x m(solute)

ΔT(freeze) is the temperature at which a liquid will freeze
K(freeze) is the cryoscopic constant and is a function of the solvent (not the solute)
m (solute) is the molality (not molarity) of solute
Great, so how does this help us?

Well, if we consider that we know the temperature at which we want the antifreeze to protect water to and we know the cryoscopic constant of water, we can calculate the molality (concentration) of ethylene glycol / water solution required. With the molality, we can calculate the exact volume of antifreeze required by: volume, mass, or percentage. Convenient huh?

Rearranging the above equation to isolate the molality of antifreeze required:

m(solute) = ΔT(freeze) / K(freeze)
m(solute) = | -40˚C | / (1.86˚C kg / mol)
m(solute) = 21.5 mol / kg solvent
Imagine now that we want to protect 4 liters of water (sorry imperial folks, science is metric 8-)

Knowing that the molality of ethylene glycol must be 21.5 mol / kg solvent, we can calculate the number of moles of ethylene glycol required:

4.0 L H2O = 4.0 kg H2O (at 4˚C because the density of water is 1.0 g / mL at 4˚C)
# moles ethylene glycol = m(solute) x (mass H2O)
# moles ethylene glycol = (21.5 mol / kg solvent) x (4kg H2O)
# moles ethylene glycol = 86 moles
Ok, now that we have the number of moles of antifreeze, we can calculate the mass of antifreeze required.

mass antifreeze = (# moles ethylene glycol) x (molecular mass ethylene glycol)
mass antifreeze = (86 mol) x (61.2 g / mol)
mass antifreeze = 5263.2g = 5.26 kg of antifreeze
Now that we have the mass of ethylene glycol required, we can calculate the proper % mixture by mass:

% antifreeze by mass = (mass antifreeze) % (mass antifreeze + mass water) x 100%
% antifreeze by mass = [5.26kg / (5.26kg + 4.0kg)] x 100%
% antifreeze by mass = (5.26 / 9.26) x 100%
% antifreeze by mass = 57%
Assuming the density of ethylene glycol to be 1.114 g / mL we can calculate the volume of antifreeze required to protect water to -40˚C

volume antifreeze = (mass antifreeze) x (density antifreeze)
volume antifreeze = (5263 g) / (1.114g / mL)
volume antifreeze = 4724 mL = 4.72 L of antifreeze
Knowing the volume of ethylene glycol required, we can calculate the proper % mixture by volume:

% antifreeze by volume = (volume antifreeze) % (volume antifreeze + volume water) x 100%
% antifreeze by volume = (4.72 L) / (4.72 L + 4.0 L) x 100%
% antifreeze by volume = (4.72 / 8.72) x 100%
% antifreeze by volume = 54%
So, in summation .. to protect 4 L of water to -40˚C a volume of 4.72 L antifreeze (ethylene glycol) is required. Put another way, if you mix your antifreeze by percentage, you should use roughly 50% water, 50% antifreeze!
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Old Feb 9, 2007 | 10:47 AM
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I believe my car holds 16 or 17 quarts of coolant...I just spoke with the radiator shop who does my power flushes and he said, based on that capacity, I am good to +10* with one gallon of anti freeze...he did not know if the two bottles of water wetter had additional anti freeze properties or not...
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Old Feb 9, 2007 | 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Fuzzy Dice
Thanks folks...I've got a guy who can test it for me so I'll run by his place...I am a bit worried about the tires...never thought about that...I run Nitto DR's full time...they are about 50% used up...cold roads and DR's...hmmmm

BTW, it will be outside the whole time (motel)...
Drag radials on a road trip

Maybe in the desert......DR's and rain???? It does rain in Florida...

20 degrees....oh, oh, rain now is snow....DR's and Snow

DR's and cold......yes they do get hard, I spun mine on a recent cold weather outing where normally they would have been ok..

Have a nice trip and good luck with the weather....oh and test your antifreeze to see how low it protects

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Old Feb 9, 2007 | 11:43 AM
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I'd open the radiator drain to remove some coolant, and add in some straight unmixed anti-freeze. It's really cold here, the tires spin very easy. Just take it easy the first few stop and turns. It's surprising how easy they will spin in the cold.
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Old Feb 9, 2007 | 01:30 PM
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The extra antifreeze won't hurt anything will raise your boil over protection anyway and you will not have any worry if the weather changes anyway(you know how those weather men lie). You will still have some heat just not boil hot. We run with 160 in all of our trucks and heater works fine. Just watch the tires!! Good LUCK wro87
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Old Feb 9, 2007 | 01:34 PM
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i live in wi. i tell you my car is stored from november till april. car goes sideways at 40 degrees. ( for the past week, maybe we reach 0 degrees f. for highs) also they put salt on roads were it could be like driving on gravel on asphalt ( not to mention salt is corrosive to metal). tires will not heat up. not to mention being caught up in a snow storm. if you would hit snow, that car would not be going anywhere! i know that first handed. also i heard fiberglass gets real brittle at cold temps. my suggestion is to choose different transportation.

Last edited by lltrevino; Feb 9, 2007 at 02:35 PM.
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Old Feb 9, 2007 | 04:15 PM
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Well, if I go, the trip isn't for 2 weeks...I think I will check the weather a day or two before and then make my decision...the DR's are a problem for trips but they are what I run on the car all the time...I drove 7 hours roundtrip on them a year ago just not at air temps this low...
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Old Feb 10, 2007 | 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Fuzzy Dice
Thanks folks...I've got a guy who can test it for me so I'll run by his place...I am a bit worried about the tires...never thought about that...I run Nitto DR's full time...they are about 50% used up...cold roads and DR's...hmmmm

BTW, it will be outside the whole time (motel)...
Your out of your mind.... Don't worry you'll be just fine. My girlfriend keeps the vette outside, in Ithaca, NY! It snowed about 4 inches last week and she drove it through the snow with SUMMER SPORT TIRES, and the car handled like a Jeep. You'll survive 3 days here. I would add a little antifreeze to be on the safe side,... the 160*F stat is fine, my brother runs one in his GTP which is driven year round. The heat is ok, but for the amount of time you are going to spend driving in the car from Florida to wherever, it will be warm by time you get there . The most dangerous part of your trip should be avoiding salt trucks on the road. Have a safe trip!

DG

Last edited by Danspeed1; Feb 10, 2007 at 02:18 PM.
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