Brake Upgrades - Ideas?
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 174
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From: Conroe TX
Brake Upgrades - Ideas?
I just came back from my first road racing event and man was I hard on the brakes. After the 4th session, while backing out of my parking spot the pedal went to the floor. I was running DOT5 brake fluid so I don't think there was any problem other than me driving my stock brake system very very hard. Later on during my 5th and 6th sessions the brakes were fine except I felt a funny sensation in the pedal when braking hard again, almost like a little vibration. Now that I'm back home the brakes emit a light squeeling sound from the back when I drive. Plenty of brake pad left, hope I didn't warp a rotor!
I want to upgrade these brakes on my 94. I am looking around but getting kinda confused. Anyone got advice on the best/most cost effective brake upgrade kits/pads, etc? I have looked at the C5 upgrade on the Group Purchase page but need more input from those already experienced....thanks in advance for your assistance! ;) :eek:
[Modified by bellmd, 12:59 PM 10/8/2001]
I want to upgrade these brakes on my 94. I am looking around but getting kinda confused. Anyone got advice on the best/most cost effective brake upgrade kits/pads, etc? I have looked at the C5 upgrade on the Group Purchase page but need more input from those already experienced....thanks in advance for your assistance! ;) :eek:
[Modified by bellmd, 12:59 PM 10/8/2001]
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 6,515
Likes: 1,302
From: Windermere FL
Re: Brake Upgrades - Ideas? (bellmd)
I was told NEVER to run DOT5 in a C4. Something about the silicon breaking down something in the brake system leading to catestrophic failure.
Any comments?
Flame Red
Any comments?
Flame Red
Drifting
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 1,931
Likes: 1
From: Norcross GA
Re: Brake Upgrades - Ideas? (bellmd)
DOT5 is silcone brake fluid. You should not have experianced a soft pedal w/ that in there. Regardless, you don't want silicone brake fluid in an ABS system. It is hard to get the bubbles out. (May have given you the soft pedal.)
If you think you need it, go w/ DOT5.1 or Ford Blue. (There are a few more on the market.) Many do fine on DOT4 fluid. Just make sure to bleed the system before an event.
If you think you need it, go w/ DOT5.1 or Ford Blue. (There are a few more on the market.) Many do fine on DOT4 fluid. Just make sure to bleed the system before an event.
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 7
From: San Diego CA
Re: Brake Upgrades - Ideas? (bellmd)
I'm contemplating upgrading to either Grand Sport or C5 brakes.
There a GP in the C4 GP Mall for about $900 to upgrade to C5 brakes.
Jeff Kopp at Superior Chev. has the following web site for a GS upgrade.
https://www.superchevyperformance.com/misc/gsbrakes.html
The GS part look like about $650.
Or just go to better rotors & pads on stock brakes then it's only about $300. See http://www.baer.com
Cheers,
There a GP in the C4 GP Mall for about $900 to upgrade to C5 brakes.
Jeff Kopp at Superior Chev. has the following web site for a GS upgrade.
https://www.superchevyperformance.com/misc/gsbrakes.html
The GS part look like about $650.
Or just go to better rotors & pads on stock brakes then it's only about $300. See http://www.baer.com
Cheers,
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 2,225
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From: Georgia
Cruise-In I Veteran
Re: Brake Upgrades - Ideas? (bellmd)
If you DON'T have the J55 (13" fronts) option a very cost effective upgrade is:
New 13" calipers/rotors/pads for front
New rotors/pads for rear
Completely flush brake fluid ~ use DOT4 ~ Ford HD was recommended to me & it was very cost effective.
If your wheels allow the calipers to be seen you might want to get GS calipers with the "CORVETTE" stamping. Otherwise, just get 13" ... I ordered a pair of rebuilt calipers with a lifetime warranty ~ after core charge they cost just over $50 each. They are factory originals except having been totally rebuilt by a leading company.
Can't remember exact cost of my total rebuild (did it myself one weekend) but I believe it was less than $500 and my braking improved dramatically from stock brakes. If you need further info shoot me an email and I will go back & research what I did. Good luck.
New 13" calipers/rotors/pads for front
New rotors/pads for rear
Completely flush brake fluid ~ use DOT4 ~ Ford HD was recommended to me & it was very cost effective.
If your wheels allow the calipers to be seen you might want to get GS calipers with the "CORVETTE" stamping. Otherwise, just get 13" ... I ordered a pair of rebuilt calipers with a lifetime warranty ~ after core charge they cost just over $50 each. They are factory originals except having been totally rebuilt by a leading company.
Can't remember exact cost of my total rebuild (did it myself one weekend) but I believe it was less than $500 and my braking improved dramatically from stock brakes. If you need further info shoot me an email and I will go back & research what I did. Good luck.
Drifting
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 1,801
Likes: 2
From: St. Paul MN
Re: Brake Upgrades - Ideas? (tuband)
I would also rec. going to the Grand Sport calipers. You can get them built with stainless steel pistons. These transfer less heat to the fluid so you are less likely to boil the fluid, which is what you did I suspect that caused the pedal to go to the floor. The Grand Sport caliper is also a bit stronger than a J55 caliper. Use stainless steel hoses. And Performance Friction Z pads. This is a great set up. It will also keep you in whatever group you race in NCCC events. If you upgrade to C5 brakes you must enter in Group III RPAF (race prepared altered frame) which means you need a full roll cage in the car, as well as the fire suit, and extinguisher (why you wouldn't have an extinguisher in any catagory is beyond me). The full roll cage is a little more than some want to do so consider that. I am quite happy with the Grand Sport brakes and PFC Z pads I use.
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,767
Likes: 5
From: Jacksonville Fl
Re: Brake Upgrades - Ideas? (Bob86ZZ4)
Brake upgrades are nice...do them as you need to, but for a cheap immediate instant improvement...spend the $13.00 at DRM and get the proportioning valve bias spring. It makes THAT much difference 
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Safety Car
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,178
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From: Windermere FL
Re: Brake Upgrades - Ideas? (bellmd)
Get rid of the fluid. The silicon fluid is what you want if the car sits in place at the corvette museum. It lasts a long time but it is not designed for the job of braking in our cars. I also read several places where it is bad for the car but I don't recall why, just to avoid it. I would get the bias spring. GS upgrade is good and cost effective. Check out http://www.Baer.com for the next steps up. They make the calipers for the C5, the PBR is the same one but comes polished with BAER on it. They also have 4 and 6 piston jobs. You could spend a few hundred for the GS, close to a grand for the C5 all the way up to several thousand for the full boat sledgehammer setup. I'm lookin C5 with better rotors (Baer eradispeeds) for me. Should be about $1200+/-
92TripleBlack :cheers:
92TripleBlack :cheers:
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 174
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From: Conroe TX
Re: Brake Upgrades - Ideas? (92TripleBlack)
OK, based upon the input thus far I'd say I'm definitely going to get rid of the DOT 5 fluid for some Ford Blue, thanks for that input. I don't have the J55 option so I'll probably put the 13' rotors on with the GS calipers, anyone have a recommended vendor who sells the entire swap kit at a good price? Also, who is DRM for the proportioning valve? Thanks again for some great advice from the collective forum! :chevy
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 8,540
Likes: 1
From: And on the fifth day, subpoenas were served to Obama senior staff
Re: Brake Upgrades - Ideas? (bellmd)
The J-55 switch is not hard. Jeff Koop has all the parts on his web sight. Do a search for 18carfan.
You problem was the DOT 5 fluid. If you got into the ABS the fluid aerate around the valves and screw you up pretty well. You system now needs more than a flush, IMO. I would go to a good shop to get that system completely cleaned. They will need a Tech I or Tech II to open up the abs to flush that DOT 5 out of there.
You should make sure that you actually put in DOT 5 (silicone). DOT 5.1 is entirely different.
You pads were burned / glazed. Pull them off and clean them up and the rotor with some scotchbright pads. Have the rotors checked for runout and warping. If warped, toss them. If you cut them they will warp sooner.
You problem was the DOT 5 fluid. If you got into the ABS the fluid aerate around the valves and screw you up pretty well. You system now needs more than a flush, IMO. I would go to a good shop to get that system completely cleaned. They will need a Tech I or Tech II to open up the abs to flush that DOT 5 out of there.
You should make sure that you actually put in DOT 5 (silicone). DOT 5.1 is entirely different.
You pads were burned / glazed. Pull them off and clean them up and the rotor with some scotchbright pads. Have the rotors checked for runout and warping. If warped, toss them. If you cut them they will warp sooner.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 174
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From: Conroe TX
Re: Brake Upgrades - Ideas? (PeteL)
PeteL,
I just got off of the phone with my mechanic and he says that the DOT5 was recommended by a Corvette dealer here in town. (I won't mention who as the fluid is already in the car and I NEVER want to put someone in an awkward position using heresay.) He says that it's not the fluid but that he'll flush it out and put in whatever I want. Should I ask him to replace with the Ford Blue or DOT4 or DOT5.1 in your opinion? He'll probably do the spring upgrade as well as replacing the calipers and rotors to 13" for me so I'm sure he'll have the entire system apart if flushing and replacing the fluid is the best path.
I just got off of the phone with my mechanic and he says that the DOT5 was recommended by a Corvette dealer here in town. (I won't mention who as the fluid is already in the car and I NEVER want to put someone in an awkward position using heresay.) He says that it's not the fluid but that he'll flush it out and put in whatever I want. Should I ask him to replace with the Ford Blue or DOT4 or DOT5.1 in your opinion? He'll probably do the spring upgrade as well as replacing the calipers and rotors to 13" for me so I'm sure he'll have the entire system apart if flushing and replacing the fluid is the best path.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 8,540
Likes: 1
From: And on the fifth day, subpoenas were served to Obama senior staff
Re: Brake Upgrades - Ideas? (bellmd)
Please don't take this answer wrong! I mean no ill will toward anyone, but you should take the car elsewhere! They should know better than to put DOT 5 in an ABS car. DOT 5 and ABS do no mix. Also DOT 5 and DOT 3 / 4 do not mix. I suspect that more than a casual flush is necessary at this point, and the ABS servo's must be opened (Tech I or equiv. tool required). Try a web search on DOT 5 and ABS and see what you find.
Brakes are serious business, and you need good work in this area.
Once somebody figures out how to clean out the system properly, any good DOT 3 or DOT 4 fluid is fine. The FORD HP DOT 3 is a good quality fluid for the price. It has a very high dry boiling point, but a poor wet boiling point. This does not matter as you should do a good bleed / flush before any track event anyway - that is why folks like this fluid. ATE also makes a good fluid in two colors so you can tell when to stop flushing. Do a search on this forum and you may find a listing of fluids.
Good Luck,
Pete
Brakes are serious business, and you need good work in this area.
Once somebody figures out how to clean out the system properly, any good DOT 3 or DOT 4 fluid is fine. The FORD HP DOT 3 is a good quality fluid for the price. It has a very high dry boiling point, but a poor wet boiling point. This does not matter as you should do a good bleed / flush before any track event anyway - that is why folks like this fluid. ATE also makes a good fluid in two colors so you can tell when to stop flushing. Do a search on this forum and you may find a listing of fluids.
Good Luck,
Pete
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 174
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From: Conroe TX
Re: Brake Upgrades - Ideas? (PeteL)
PeteL,
Don't worry, I'm not taking it wrong. I appreciate the help. It does just make me sick that a mistake like this could have been made and that I'm in a bigger ditch than I was prior to changing the fluid at all. I'm not familiar with the terms Tech I or II, can you tell me a little more about what you are referencing so that I might get this issue straightened out without more grief? I hope I haven't totally screwed up my brake system at this point......... :(
Don't worry, I'm not taking it wrong. I appreciate the help. It does just make me sick that a mistake like this could have been made and that I'm in a bigger ditch than I was prior to changing the fluid at all. I'm not familiar with the terms Tech I or II, can you tell me a little more about what you are referencing so that I might get this issue straightened out without more grief? I hope I haven't totally screwed up my brake system at this point......... :(
Safety Car
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,178
Likes: 2
From: Windermere FL
Re: Brake Upgrades - Ideas? (bellmd)
DRM is Doug Rippie Motorsports. Their site is http://www.dougrippie.com and you are looking for their bias spring. I would also see what they are using for fluid with their brake upgrade kits.
92TripleBlack :cheers:
92TripleBlack :cheers:
Pro
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 587
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From: Phx/but its a dry blast furnace kinda heat AZ
Re: Brake Upgrades - Ideas? (bellmd)
FWIW.... See if this makes sense
The reason I've heard re: incompatibilities between DOT4 & DOT5 lie in their chemistry.
DOT4 absorbs water. DOT5 does not. When you mix the two either directly or by not ***THOROUGHLY*** cleaning out the ENTIRE brake system, you risk trapping localized pockets of DOT4 (w/water). The water then has opportunity to oxidize the surrounding metal around the pocket (a very bad thing). The clincher remains in the THOROUGH cleaning. Unless each and every part is disassembled and flushed with solvent how do you insure that you've eliminated all traces of DOT4?
It's probably a combination of more than one of these incompatibilities where the actual truth lies.
The reason I've heard re: incompatibilities between DOT4 & DOT5 lie in their chemistry.
DOT4 absorbs water. DOT5 does not. When you mix the two either directly or by not ***THOROUGHLY*** cleaning out the ENTIRE brake system, you risk trapping localized pockets of DOT4 (w/water). The water then has opportunity to oxidize the surrounding metal around the pocket (a very bad thing). The clincher remains in the THOROUGH cleaning. Unless each and every part is disassembled and flushed with solvent how do you insure that you've eliminated all traces of DOT4?
It's probably a combination of more than one of these incompatibilities where the actual truth lies.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 8,540
Likes: 1
From: And on the fifth day, subpoenas were served to Obama senior staff
Re: Brake Upgrades - Ideas? (bellmd)
Don't think you have damaged anything, I'm just not sure how to get it all out. Good shop should know.
What happens is DOT 5 does not like the rapid movement in the ABS modulator and aerates / cavitates - kind of bubbles all up. Now once the valves in the ABS have opened, there is some DOT 5 in there that must come out. A Tech I is a GM scan tool that can interface with the ABS modulator and force the vavles open so they can be blead. It could be that you have a bleed valve on the ABS unit and that would facilitate cleaning it out.
What happens is DOT 5 does not like the rapid movement in the ABS modulator and aerates / cavitates - kind of bubbles all up. Now once the valves in the ABS have opened, there is some DOT 5 in there that must come out. A Tech I is a GM scan tool that can interface with the ABS modulator and force the vavles open so they can be blead. It could be that you have a bleed valve on the ABS unit and that would facilitate cleaning it out.
Safety Car
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 3,504
Likes: 4
From: Mexico Beach FL
Re: Brake Upgrades - Ideas? (PeteL)
Here is information on the Vetronix Tech-1A scan-tool that most GM dealershps and Delco repair shops have: http://www.vetronix.com/diagnostics/tech1a/
Tom Piper
Tom Piper
