" dart pro 1 vs Afr heads "
#21
Burning Brakes
The assumption you're making is none of us did our homework and that we should believe everything on your website: Independent flow sheets vs what is on your web site.
d48mclain, it is the little editorial negative sarcasms you add to your "factual and honost" information (here and on your other posts on CF) that are construed as "bashing". Try eliminating that and just ask a question or make your comments without the digs. We are all interested in discussing questions and observations. It is the innuendo that is annoying
d48mclain, it is the little editorial negative sarcasms you add to your "factual and honost" information (here and on your other posts on CF) that are construed as "bashing". Try eliminating that and just ask a question or make your comments without the digs. We are all interested in discussing questions and observations. It is the innuendo that is annoying
#22
Le Mans Master
I'm continually amazed at how AFR is always at the center of cylinder head controversies such as this one.
Has anyone else noticed that too or is it just me?
Jake
Has anyone else noticed that too or is it just me?
Jake
#23
Racer
Member Since: Dec 2003
Location: Double Oak TX
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The assumption you're making is none of us did our homework and that we should believe everything on your website: Independent flow sheets vs what is on your web site.
d48mclain, it is the little editorial negative sarcasms you add to your "factual and honost" information (here and on your other posts on CF) that are construed as "bashing". Try eliminating that and just ask a question or make your comments without the digs. We are all interested in discussing questions and observations. It is the innuendo that is annoying
d48mclain, it is the little editorial negative sarcasms you add to your "factual and honost" information (here and on your other posts on CF) that are construed as "bashing". Try eliminating that and just ask a question or make your comments without the digs. We are all interested in discussing questions and observations. It is the innuendo that is annoying
On a real note......Is Mark Montivao (sp) still around as I believe he was from Redding and I know B&B performance has since moved. Everyone probably owes more to those guys pioneering stroker LTx motors than heads from AFR even though they did use AFR heads mostly because that was all that was available back then. Way ahead of the curve and if Mark is still around, tell him I said hello. Know he was in a bad automotive accident and kinda dropped out of the scene but......very bright.
#24
Burning Brakes
I am happy you took my comments as a positive. That is how I intended them. You do put up a lot of factual information that is worth discussing.
I do not know Mark. If you are referring to Brian Sisson's business, B&B Performance, he moved his busiess back east some where, then he returned to Redding a couple of years ago. There is no way to say this easily.....he died of some terminal disease, annurism or something, I am not sure what it was. I was shocked to learn that maybe a year ago or so. He was only in his 40's, give or take. Very sad
I do not know Mark. If you are referring to Brian Sisson's business, B&B Performance, he moved his busiess back east some where, then he returned to Redding a couple of years ago. There is no way to say this easily.....he died of some terminal disease, annurism or something, I am not sure what it was. I was shocked to learn that maybe a year ago or so. He was only in his 40's, give or take. Very sad
#25
#26
I don't know about AFR in the SBC arena but they are all the rage in the LS1 area. I would hope their product was consisent from one product to another. It appears they've had some issues in the past, but I can vouch for Tony in that he's never to my knowledge tried to inflate numbers, or be shady in any way. I think he's just excited about their new product and if I was him I probably would be too.
That said, there are other options and that is ultimately good for all for all of us. Keeps the prices in line
That said, there are other options and that is ultimately good for all for all of us. Keeps the prices in line
#27
Racer
Member Since: Dec 2003
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What I didn't do was grocery store sensationalism with articles of people taken into space in flying saucers, boys raised by wolves nor 900lb fat people and what they ate. Have a personal problem with that type of marketing because as we all know; none of it is probably true. (Not sure about all the flying saucer stuff though)
If you will read this months (I know, don't believe mag articles as they are usually disguised endorsements…..and this one is also) Chevy High Performance there is an article on Dart's new Pro 1 head with an interview of Tom McAffe whom is a Dart employee. Enjoyed the article because I could relate to it. It was reasonable in the conclusions and believable in everyday life.
They state flow rates in the 260-270 cfm range with seems quite conservative. Say the 383 engine they used made 503 hp @ 6,000 rpm using a 236/248 cam which most of also can relate to. Explain how they use wet flow vs dry flow to further develop their new heads.
What they say appears logical regarding how increased wet flow velocity more closely mocks how an engine would perform during actual operation and by using a liquid with the air, more closely simulates true operation. The gains are a little over 20 hp from their prior head using this wet flow technology. None appears excessive.
When you live on the knife's edge claiming 115 hp gains instead of 20 some. 615 hp 383 using the biggest circle track cam Comp makes in a set-up that doesn't quite match any real world application. Act like this would be typical of production heads……. you occasionally get cut.
They do seem to keep themselves in controversy for some reason.
Now……was that bashing?? Hope not. My apologies go out already.
#28
Racer
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I don't know about AFR in the SBC arena but they are all the rage in the LS1 area. I would hope their product was consisent from one product to another. It appears they've had some issues in the past, but I can vouch for Tony in that he's never to my knowledge tried to inflate numbers, or be shady in any way. I think he's just excited about their new product and if I was him I probably would be too.
That said, there are other options and that is ultimately good for all for all of us. Keeps the prices in line
That said, there are other options and that is ultimately good for all for all of us. Keeps the prices in line
#29
Melting Slicks
#32
Tony
The assumption you're making is none of us did our homework and that we should believe everything on your website: Independent flow sheets vs what is on your web site.
AFR 210 (as cast) Independently tested
Intake exhaust
.100 67.7 54.3
.150 99.0 82.2
.200 130.3 105.2
.250 157.4 127.5
.300 184.1 146.1
.350 201.8 166.6
.400 214.8 182.2
.450 224.6 192.7
.500 232.3 201.9
.550 237.0 208.9
.600 237.0 213.3
The assumption you're making is none of us did our homework and that we should believe everything on your website: Independent flow sheets vs what is on your web site.
AFR 210 (as cast) Independently tested
Intake exhaust
.100 67.7 54.3
.150 99.0 82.2
.200 130.3 105.2
.250 157.4 127.5
.300 184.1 146.1
.350 201.8 166.6
.400 214.8 182.2
.450 224.6 192.7
.500 232.3 201.9
.550 237.0 208.9
.600 237.0 213.3
AFR...... CHP .....AFR ....... CHS ................ Quick
210 RR . Data.... Data ...... Stock .......... clean-up
.1 ........ 67 ....... - .......... 73 ..................... 79
.2 ........ 140 ...... 135 ...... 130 (96.3%) ....... 137
.3 ........ 197 ...... 197 ...... 180 (91.3%) ....... 188
.4 ........ 240 ...... 245 ...... 233 (95.1%) ....... 239
.5 ........ 271 ...... 273 ...... 274 (100.4%) ...... 277
.6 ........ 279 ...... 282 ...... 285 (101.1) ........ 285
.65 ....... -- ........ 283 ...... 283 (100) ........... 283
.7 ........ 284 ...... 285
CHP - Chevy High Performance magazine
AFR - Air Flow Research Data
CHS - Independent and witnessed data - out of the box
Quick Clean Up - 3 minute "clean-up" process - not "porting"
The CHS shop owner said these were typical flow numbers from the 210 AFR heads,,, that the .3 and .4 lifts were typically down 5 - 7%. He flowed a set of heads I had CNC ported and flowed back in 1996 while I was there,,, just to help validate the bench (and fixture used) and numbers were within 1 - 2 cfm at all lifts. The owner of the shop is an old friend,,, known long before he got into the business,,, so I can say with 100% certainty the CHS information is accurate and without any vested interest in AFR or a shop brand competitor's head.
To me,, it kinda looks like the flow numbers AFR posted is a "perfect casting" - maybe one of the first production heads with no core shift or casting imperfections. I personally have no problem with the numbers they posted as I haven't pulled a head out of the box and bolted it on in years.
Last edited by BadSS; 03-10-2007 at 10:57 PM.
#33
Instructor
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Tony MCAfee
He used to port L-98 heads for Lingenfelter
before they went CNC,he ported a set for me when he was on
his on.
Numbers werent big ,but performance was on my 383 SR
He used to port L-98 heads for Lingenfelter
before they went CNC,he ported a set for me when he was on
his on.
Numbers werent big ,but performance was on my 383 SR
#34
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Mar 2002
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St. Jude Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'17-'18-'19-'20-'21-'22
'23-'24
No one is hammering anyone. Just keeping information posted honest and as factual as possible.
If you have something that is contrary to what I've posted that you can back up (I have the actual/origional flow sheets) please post it. I'm all eyes, ears n teeth to learn something. I can always be proved wrong...you just need to provide the proof.
If you have something that is contrary to what I've posted that you can back up (I have the actual/origional flow sheets) please post it. I'm all eyes, ears n teeth to learn something. I can always be proved wrong...you just need to provide the proof.
#35
Advanced
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I had the same issue as 97Aggie (JP) with my 190 LT1 AFRs. I had a crack form in the exhaust passage which let coolant run into the cylinder (this happened on my #4 cyl). It almost ruined my new 383.
The machineshop that found the crack said they have seen this issue on another set of LT AFRs (I think they were 97Aggies' heads).
I sent the heads back to AFR where they were repaired. No problem from them since. *knocks on wood*
The machineshop that found the crack said they have seen this issue on another set of LT AFRs (I think they were 97Aggies' heads).
I sent the heads back to AFR where they were repaired. No problem from them since. *knocks on wood*
#37
#40