Do your fog lights go off when you turn your high beams on?

My 87 failed a MD safety inspection today because it doesn't do this and according to the **** inspector, state regulations require an automatic cut off of fog/aux lights when headlamps are set to high beam.

According to the wiring diagram in my Factory Service Manual, Electrical Supplement, page 100-0, 100-1, the fog light circuit is very simple. It consists of the light switch, the fog lamp switch, the two fog lamps and the wiring between them. The headlight dimmer switch is NOT part of the fog lamp circuit. The headlight dimmer switch is ONLY connected to the high beam input of the headlamp assembly and the high beam indicator on the instrument cluster. It seems to me that, according to this inspector, my car would not pass MD safety inspection as it came from the factory!!

Does anyone have an 87 registered in MD? Did you have fog light issues when you had the car inspected. Would you do me a quick favor and run to your car and check if the fog lights go off when you set your headlights to high beam. Thanks.

This is very annoying. First he fails me for worn rear wheel bearing after I spent the weekend installing a set from Pep Boys. Now he's making up his own regulations.


[Modified by Eric Fraser, 9:52 PM 11/6/2001]

 

I have an "88 and yes, the fog lights go off w/ hi beam.

Also of note my old Triumph did the same (in fact the TR was factory wired for rear fog lights the same way & they went off w/ hi beam)

I think the ground circuit for the fog lights is some how connected to your headlights (fog lights loose ground when hi beams get energized. The fog lights (OEM) where low wattage (30 I think), so some people upgrade to a higher wattage (like 50 watts, therefore a brighter bulb, more amps..) & this necessitated moving the ground to REAL ground. I believe this disables the Hi beam off feature.

What I would do.....
Since I cannot believe fog lights would be required (even in Maryland) I would remove the bulbs....say they are disabled, or don't work. Then after inspection restore them if I wanted the fog lights (actually I am not impressed w/ their abilty to cut through a Michigan fog, although they look cool) :cool:

 

Exactly what I was thinking... :)

Man am I glad I live in FL! No emissions testing, no inspections, no nothing. :yesnod:

 

My foglights do not turn off when the high beams are on. I think this was a popular modification done to the grounding circuit when these cars were new. I'll have to look into it. I think what it is is that the foglights used to be grounded along with the headlights, and when highbeam is activated this caused them to go off. I think the modification just grounds the foglights to their own point.

 

well Scorp, I read what you said & what I said... I think we are saying the same thing... only I just got home from niteshifht & I don't type my thoughts so clearly :lol: :lol:

 

Thanks for checking.

I got the car new in 87 and have never messed with the wiring. According to the factory service manual schematics, the fog lamp ground is a real ground (G116), the same ground as the horns. And I know the horns work in all modes. So maybe this was changed for 88? I don't know.

I went back to the dealer today and asked to speak with the head inspector. They manager said that he'd been inspecting car for 20 years. So, I asked him, how would YOU fix this problem if I left it with you and said do whatever it takes to make it pass the fog lamp requirement. He said he would probably look to see if the switch is bad, he didn't know. I showed him the wiring diagram from my copy of the factory service manual for the 87. He agreed that the diagram seemed to indicate that the fog lamp operation was independent of the dimmer switch. But, he said, maybe there was more detail that was missing from my wiring diagram. He brought out a service manual for a 93 vette and showed me the wiring diagram. See, he said, it has greater detail of the switches. Well, yeah, of course. They probably had different switches in 93. The 87 light switch is the simple three position old-style pull ****. It's either in the off, in parking lights or headlight position. The description of the fog lamp circuit operation reads " With the Light switch in the HEAD or PARK and the Fog Light Switch ON, voltage is applied to th RH and LH Fog Lights." That's it. And this simple description matches exactly with the circuit diagram and with it's actual operation on my car.

Please, someone with an 87 check your fog lamp operation for me and let me know if Iam wrong on this before I start rewiring my car.

So, anyway, I asked the chief inspector, since fog lamps are not required equipment, could I simply remove the fog lamp bulbs. He said removing the bulbs alone wouldn't work. I would have to remove the whole fog lamp assembly. What? Even the plastic lense that covers the fog lamp bulbs? He said yes. I told him that the lense that covers the fog lamp also covers the parking lights as well. So removing the fog lamp assembly would require removing the parking lights. He said parking lights are required and that would cause it to fail.

At this point, the manager decided I was taking too much of his inpectors time and said that the bottom line is, regardless of what the factory service manual says, the state requirements are clear and they simply would not pass the car as it was. So, I asked, if GM made and the deallerships sold cars that did not meet MD state safety requirements, did they at least offer a simple retrofit when they discovered there mistake? He said he knew of no such retrofit.

 

My '86 works the same way. High beams or low, fogs will stay on. I was curious about that as well having once failed a NJ test in my '69 vette with aftermarket fogs.

 

Checked my lights at lunch, high beam or low, driving lights stay on. The only way they are off is if I turn them off. I guess that the car is made that way so I wouldn't know what to do other that contact another inspection station or contact the state and state my case. :)

 

Thanks all for checking. So one 86 and two 87s so far have fog lamp operation independent of head light dimmer switch.

Zero 87's so far would pass MD state inspection. Hmm.. I don't think this was a mod. I think they came this way from the factory.

Anyone else with an 87?

 

Yeah, there were about 30 of them that registered in a post I made a few days ago, lemme put a pointer to this thread over there.

 

Thanks Scorp.

 

OK. I just got back upstairs from the parking garage.... I had to check a new cigarette adaptor for my laptop, so I figured I'd use the excuse to sneak out and check the lights for ya while I was down visiting my car. :jester

When the High Beams are on, my Fog Lights REMAIN ON. And whaddyknow - my car passed Maryland Inspection earlier this summer.... and I thought *I* had found the state's pickiest inspector!!! Good Luck!

BTW, Tony's Corvette had my car in for a checkup right after I purchased it and he took care of the inspection for me - he doesn't do the inspections himself - the local station does the inspections for him. They had me put on new exhaust, bearings, some bulbs & switch (cyclops light), new rad (OK, old one WAS leaking)... and a bunch of other annoyances (wiper blades...) You might ask him which station he uses because if what you are saying was true I'm sure they'd have failed me for that too!!! I'm in the DC / Baltimore area BTW.
http://www.tonyscorvetteshop.com/
Tony's Corvette Shop
7500 Rickenbacker Drive
Gaithersburg, Maryland ·
(301)987-0565

 

Speaking of making my case to the state, while I was at the dealer, the inspector told me that they report directly to the MD state police. After I showed him the schematics from my Factory service manual, he went off and called the state police on the phone and asked if any exceptions had been made for some models, specifically certain model-year vettes. He came back and told me that the state police said no exceptions are allowed.

I find it very hard to believe that all the 87 vettes that this particular dealership sold back in 1987 failed to pass inspection and had to be retrofitted to pass. Their inspectors probably just conveniently overlooked that minor detail in the regulations for the cars they wanted to sell and were responsible for getting inspected and registered before delivery to the buyer.

I am definitely going to another inspection station. I just need to know for sure that my car is operating as build and that what is required is a mod to make it pass inspection.

 

I have an 89. The Fog light wiring is not the greatest IMHO. the 90-newer has a better set-up

Basically your diagram should show.. +12v to the fog light switch.. then from the switch to each foglamps. then the negative for the foglamp to the positvie of the highbeam then the high beam to ground. Then High beam switch then is connected between the positive of the High beam and the negative of the fog lamp. when the High beans are switched on the foglamps SHOULD shut off. but there still is the possibility that they stay on.

What I would do is get a relay and rewire that circuit. Basically get relay with the terminals that are normally closed so it would wire this way

Cut the connection from the foglamps to the Highbeams. The fog lamp side of the wire should connect to the Common for the relay (switch part) then the Normally closed terminal should be wired to a ground of your choice.

Then cut the highbeam switch lead from each highbeam connection. Wire the switch to one side of the coil on the relay. then connect the Highbeam to the opposite side of the relay coil.

This will then solve the problem for the highbeam and foglamps that stay on together.

Let me know if this does not make sense

 

I do not think they are allowed to make you MODIFY your car to pass!!! How would they pass ANY of the older cars (like my '70) which came from the factory with ONLY Lap belts - which PASSED Maryland safety inspection that way!?!? I was under the impression (could be wrong I suppose) that the cars are required to meet all regulations in place AT THE TIME THEY WERE NEW..... Isn't that the same issue the older cars use to bypass Today's Smog / Emissions regulations? You don't see them requiring shoulder belts in the C3 corvettes! ~Juliet

 

In Maryland NEW cars (or cars under 3 or 5 years old - I forget the exact cutoff) are exempted from the inspection.... At least that's what they told us about 2 months ago when my Husband bought a new Dodge truck. So, if that hasn't changed since '87, they wouldn't have been inspected back then when new - so nothing to pass. It must be a new regulation or Chevy wouldn't have been allowed to sell them in 1987 like that. ~Juliet

 

Jeff, thanks for your input. But I really think that a change to this circuit was made in 88. So far, one person with an 88 has said that his fog lamps cutoff in high beam. But no one with an 87 has reported this. And from the description of your circuit, it is clearly different from mine. My circuit shows +12v applied to the headlight switch. When the headlight switch is in HEAD or PARK position, +12V is passed to the fog light switch. When the fog light switch is on, +12v is passed to the fog lamp bulbs. The other end of the bulbs are grounded directly. In my circuit, there is no condition under which the fog lamps could be controlled by the headlight dimmer switch. There is simply NO connection between the fog lamps and high beams or the dimmer switch.

 

Juliet,

According to the inspector these regulations have been in place for a long time. I asked to see the specific regulation in writing and he pulled out a black bound book. He showed me a paragraph that read something to the effect: "Auxillary and/or fog lights may be used in low beam". That's it!! His interpretation of this one-liner is that fog lamps may NOT be used in high beam. I told him that statement could be read to imply that the driver must switch off fog/aux lights when in high beam. He disagreed. I asked him to show me a direct statement that said: "Reject vehicle if fog lamps don't automatically cut out in high beam." (After all, he did show me a statement that read: Reject vehicle if wheel bearings are loose, worn, or damaged.) He couldn't come up with one. That's when he offered to call the state police. Well, what do you think they are going to say if you ask them a loaded question like: Is model x exempt from regulation y?

 

Well, to pass I would suggest call GM Directly.. getting some nfo from the source. VIA fax or mail etc.

Then also take th GM Service manual with the circuit design to the testing facility and show them.. in order to PASS you would NEED to MODIFY the car and you DON"T want to do that..

 

Eric & Juliet basically said what I was going to say.

My editorial:
I don't know MD, but they sure did a stupid one here.
If that is the verbage that is the law, they still have not proven you failed it.