Guys,
I jsut bought the 190 AFR's and I was going to run it in combination with my Superram, LPE 219 cam. I noticed on LPE site that the 219 cam with 1.6 RR has a lift of .560. The 190 AFR's say that a maximum on .550 is on the stock springs. Is thin going to be a problem? Perhaps I am not understanding the relationship fully. I thought a lot of persons were running this combination with success. Well thank for the answers.

 

YES, you always need springs to match your combination.
CARTEK tried 11 sets of valve springs before the were happy with mine.
This kind of detail is what makes the performance difference.


[Modified by mackeyred96, 11:38 AM 11/12/2001]

 

Better safe than sorry! No valve floating here. I went with a spring similar to the LPE spings but they didn't require machining the heads. They are good for .600 lift.

 

I too will be using this combination, could someone give a specific brand,part number and/or supplier for the valve sprngs mentioned above? A swap in spring is what I will be looking(no machining to the new AFR'S). The S/R-AFR 190-LPE 74219 combo seems quite popular,I'm surprised this hasn't come up before.
Vette Punk :conehead

 

Ahhhh Crap! What am I going to need to do then? This was not expected! I thought they would be OK to run with this cam. As Vette Punk stated I too have never seen anything about there being a problem. Don't get me wrong I am not refuting your claims that there will be problems or performance loss, I just just was not expecting to have to change the springs. What will I need to do this? Thanks guys. Its not what I wanted to hear but, OH WELL! How much are the right springs gonna run me? The retainers ect should still work right? If I am going to change the springs would it be wise to go with 1.7 RR and get more lift? These are things I am thinking about...

 

Extreme valve lift has atleast three potential problems.

1) Pistion to valve clearence.

2) Spring retainer to valve guide/seal clearence.

3) Valve spring "coil bind". If the spring stacks solid before the cam has finished lifting, expensive parts will be compromised.

A prudent engine builder will verify adequate clearences

If I were ordering a set of heads that were being shipped from the manufacturer, I would let them know what I was doing with them. Let the "experts" set them up. Of course, they can't address the piston to valve clearence situation. This is something you should do. But they CAN make sure that their heads will accomodate the valve lift you intend to subject them to.

CFI-EFI

 

CFI_EFI
I will go with the 1.6's but need to find out what springs to get. This really upsets me that I told them (AFR) what cam I was going to be running and they said we sell tons of them for that combination without indicating any before mentioned problems. They also indicated that it would run GREAT! I will not put it together knowing something is not matched. It sounds as if soem of you have already tackled the problem and I would appreciate any help you might be able to provide me with. Thanks. Someone just rained on my parade!!!!! :cry I hope this will not be real hard to do. I have looked at prices of the springs and they are not real expensive ~100 bucks, but it still upsets me. Thanks guys.

 

Valve springs are very important as Mackey said. The guy that did my heads called Crane because he didn't think the spring rate he had listed for their 2032 cam was right. Called them up, and they gave him not only a spring rate, but a required spring rate for the head/cam combination.

He said this was a very important part of the process.

 

Do you think AFR could get the right springs on there or do you think LPE would be a better source since it will be their cam? If I get them from AFR I can have them installed by them. If I get them from LPE I have to do it. My dad has the spring compressor tool and from what I remember it was not too hard to do. Just as a refresher, what all is entailed in the spring change job? Thanks guys.

 

Guys,
Does anyone have any advise for me on this issue. I think Vette Punk is in the same boat and possibly others that are already running the combination without realizing it is a problem. Thanks and I really appreciate your help.

 

I would buy the heads from AFR with the springs that you nead just tell them what cam you have and what rocker you will be using and that you wont springs that you can use with that cam, then it will not cost you that much and you will get the head that you want not one that you have to change to fit your nead.
I guess that when you told them what cam you were going to have they did not know that you were going to use 1.6 rocker because if you dont use them the springs in the heads would be just right for them.
It is better to have a little bigger springs then to small.

Just my 2 cents
Jay

 

I to was going to use the 219 with 1.6 RR but Julio at Cartek feels it's better to use a Comp custom ground cam. It not much more money but it allowes you to build all the lift you want into the cam profile so you can retain 1.5 rockers so it won't change the valve train geometry.

 

Jesse,

I totally agree with MrJay. It does sound as though AFR was unaware that you planned to use 1.6 :1 rockers. Tell them EXACTLY what you are doing and what you expect from their product, and I am sure that they will be anxious to send you what you need. It ought to be quicker and cheaper, not to mention a better chance of getting correctly matched parts, to have them set the heads up for you.

SBC 1.7:1 rockers??? That is the stock ratio for a big block, But I've never heard of a ratio greater than 1.6/1.65:1 for a small block. If that kind of lift is necessary, you may want to entertain a cam change.

Changing valve springs with the heads off of the engine is pretty straight forward. Compress the spring. Remove the valve locks. Decompress the spring and remove the retainers, and the springs. To install, reverse the proceedure. Of course you will want to verify the installed height at this time, and adjust it to the spring/cam manufacturers spec. With the springs removed is the ideal time to verify the retainer to guide/seal clearence at max lift. Caution! Don't remove the valves unless you plan to change the valve seals. More than likely, the sharp edge of the keeper grooves in the valves will cut the seals. Simple umbrella seals shouldn't likely be harmed.

Good luck. Have fun. CFI-EFI


[Modified by CFI-EFI, 11:28 AM 11/12/2001]

 

Guys,
First off thanks for the replies. I have it figured out to the tune of $170 spring/valve upgrade. AFR was very helpful figuring out what I needed. It is the #8032 option. This will allow me to rev without problems to ~6500 with the 219 cam. It requires better valves also. These valves are the competition ones. All in all, they said I am MUCH better with this upgrade. This leads to the next question which I am totally in the dark about. But before I ask it I think I should say that I think there are individuals on the forum that are running the same combination of 219 cam, and "stock" 190 AFR springs with 1.6 RR. AFR said this could be a deadly combination since this exceeds their .550 lift maximun. They said it would definately hurt performance and also could eventually lead to failure. Unlimately I think this needs to be brought to light. Its something I nearly overlooked and I would bet that others already have overlooked it. I was a little upset at the added cost, but in retrospect it could have been worse.
The next question is they said that I will need new hardened pushrods, due to the guide plates. AFR said the stock length should work but he explained that I needed to make sure everthing stayed the same. He also said that it is very likey that I will need a different length. He explained a procedure that the roller rocker will pass the valves centerline, ect when things are right. Needless to say I did not understand the full scope of his explination and I am worried that the stock length will not work. Can someone explain this process to me in more detail or assure me from past experience that the stock length will be fine. Sorry for being and idiot, but we have to learn sometime and this place is great for that. Thanks in advance.

 

I dont know what they are going to do for you but my guess is that they are going to put a bigger spring and a longer valve, if we take the spring first you are getting a spring that is much stiffer and that is a little longer so it will not bind up at your max lift, but when you do that the seat pressure and open pressure will be much more so a stock pushrods may just bend when it tryes to open the valves so that is why you would have to put in a stronger pushrods, now why longer well sometimes you have to make the valve longer to get a bigger or a stiffer spring in a head, most of the time they go 0.100 longer that is why you would have to go with a longer pushrods because if not the rocker arm will be higher at the front then the back and it will most likely hit the top of the spring when it is like that.

This is just my 2 cents hope it helps a little

Jay

PS CFI-EFI they do make 1.7 rocker arms for SBC, we have used some from Jesel.

 

Mrjay,
How can I tell if I need the longer pushrod? I need help badly. Is there a method to check this? Thanks a lot guys....

 

MrJay,
I stand corrected. I haven't seen any 1.7:1 rocker arms for the SBC. Damn those manufacturers. They keep making stuff without checking with me first!

Jesse,
Hardened push rods aren't required so much for their strength, as they are for their wear properties. Guide plates rubbing against a non-hardened push rod will cause the rods to wear. This weakens the push rod and provides shrapnel for the oiling system. Not good for the bearings.
The question of longer push rods is one of valve train geometry. I just wrote a detailed explaination of how various modifications can affect the valve train geometry. My ISP dumped me and I lost it all. Most of the cam grinders address this in their catelogs. Many also sell a tool or other means of verifying/correcting the geometry. Poor geometry, at it's least, causes ineffiecent valve action. At it's worst, it can cause rapid wear and parts failure. Check it. If necessary, I can re-write the "book" that my ISP dumped.

DFI-EFI

 

CFI_EFI,
THanks for the reply. I would love to read your bible of puchrod length. I understood the need for the hardened pushrods but lack the experience to determine the correct configuration you alluded to. An explination or bible scripture :D would prove invaluable to me and possibly others. thanks for your help. In the meantime I will search archieves for topics. Thanks.

 

Guys,
I think I understand what needs to be done now. This pretty much explains/clarifies what I had in my head but just wanted to make sure I fully understood what needed checked. I will need to get an adjustable pushrod that I can use. Perhaps I could rent one from one of you guys, since I probably will have no further use of it after determining the correct length. Thanks all.
http://www.compcams.com/catalog/278.html http://www.compcams.com/catalog/279html

Real nice drawing to explain the dynamics of what is to happen.