AFR Eliminator Head performance
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,146
Likes: 2
From: Albuquerque NM
What cylinder head....75cc 227cc comp eliminators Chevy
what were the actual numbers....see above
what type of equipment was actually used to flow test the head....Superbench
was there a clay or radiused inlet entry....yes, hand moulded to the head inlet
was a proper flow tube used on the exhaust....actually no, but the exh matched the adv numbers at the time
what bore size....4.125"
and type of fixture...pull on a 4" extension.
Tony, you are a great presence on this board and have provided facts here. From what I see you are a benefit to this board and to the community. I'll send a PM to ya. And your right 10 CFM on a 327 CFM head is small potatoes. 15 CFM at .30" isn't right.
Cheers
what were the actual numbers....see above
what type of equipment was actually used to flow test the head....Superbench
was there a clay or radiused inlet entry....yes, hand moulded to the head inlet
was a proper flow tube used on the exhaust....actually no, but the exh matched the adv numbers at the time
what bore size....4.125"
and type of fixture...pull on a 4" extension.
Tony, you are a great presence on this board and have provided facts here. From what I see you are a benefit to this board and to the community. I'll send a PM to ya. And your right 10 CFM on a 327 CFM head is small potatoes. 15 CFM at .30" isn't right.
Cheers
What cylinder head....what were the actual numbers....what type of equipment was actually used to flow test the head....was there a clay or radiused inlet entry....was a proper flow tube used on the exhaust....what bore size and type of fixture....what shop was used for the testing, etc., etc....(these are the questions that immediatly come to mind).
Most importantly, why wasnt I (or my company) contacted first as I assume you must know of our presence on this board. Even if you didnt know of our involvement, wouldnt a call to the manufacturer been warranted before a post of this nature? Had you done so and felt we just blew you off then a post of this nature would be more inline and stating that you had contacted us with little or no help (not the case here of course).
You know what happens more times than I can count....the head wasnt flow tested properly.
Here is a report that posts kind of just the opposite picture about our product from one of the largest and most respected names in the business. This guy has seen everything and has been flowtesting heads longer than a fair amount of people reading and posting on this site have been alive....it also includes real world dyno testing to back it up (ultimately the most important facet of their design).
http://www.gofastnews.com/board/tech...er-masses.html
I would encourage the original poster to PM me and better yet call me on Monday at the shop. Hopefully we can resolve the descrepancy and possibly look at the heads in question. The fact they were off a bunch at .300 really leads me to question the results as our heads are extremely un-sensitive at that number and should have been alot closer to our advertised published figures. Note there are big variables in flow benches themselves....even the same type of equipment which is another huge factor in and of itself. If these heads are off as much as described we will stand behind them (but I seriously doubt that is the case).....ultimately we will make it right but must be given the opportunity to do so.
Thanks,
Tony Mamo
(661)257-8124 Ext. 109
Most importantly, why wasnt I (or my company) contacted first as I assume you must know of our presence on this board. Even if you didnt know of our involvement, wouldnt a call to the manufacturer been warranted before a post of this nature? Had you done so and felt we just blew you off then a post of this nature would be more inline and stating that you had contacted us with little or no help (not the case here of course).
You know what happens more times than I can count....the head wasnt flow tested properly.
Here is a report that posts kind of just the opposite picture about our product from one of the largest and most respected names in the business. This guy has seen everything and has been flowtesting heads longer than a fair amount of people reading and posting on this site have been alive....it also includes real world dyno testing to back it up (ultimately the most important facet of their design).
http://www.gofastnews.com/board/tech...er-masses.html
I would encourage the original poster to PM me and better yet call me on Monday at the shop. Hopefully we can resolve the descrepancy and possibly look at the heads in question. The fact they were off a bunch at .300 really leads me to question the results as our heads are extremely un-sensitive at that number and should have been alot closer to our advertised published figures. Note there are big variables in flow benches themselves....even the same type of equipment which is another huge factor in and of itself. If these heads are off as much as described we will stand behind them (but I seriously doubt that is the case).....ultimately we will make it right but must be given the opportunity to do so.
Thanks,
Tony Mamo
(661)257-8124 Ext. 109
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,388
Likes: 42
From: Murrysville PA
I bought one of the first sets of AFR 195 Comp Eliminators and here were the flow numbers:
Flow results are in!
Jason Norris 195 Comp Port Part 1095 AFR
28” test pressure
4.040" Bore
2.08 int 1.60 exh
Valve lift Int. C.F.M. @ 28” Ex. C.F.M @28"
.100 66 53
.200 150 116
.300 211 175
.400 255 208
.500 285 219
.550 298 219
.600 305 219
Exhaust was flowed without a pipe. Intake had a 1206 clay inlet.
Flow results are in!
Jason Norris 195 Comp Port Part 1095 AFR
28” test pressure
4.040" Bore
2.08 int 1.60 exh
Valve lift Int. C.F.M. @ 28” Ex. C.F.M @28"
.100 66 53
.200 150 116
.300 211 175
.400 255 208
.500 285 219
.550 298 219
.600 305 219
Exhaust was flowed without a pipe. Intake had a 1206 clay inlet.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,080
Likes: 2
From: Pittsburgh PA
Guy on another board flowed their 195cc elmininators and were within 3 cfm of advertised. Most of the heads they've flowed have matched or been very close to matching advertised. I got a set for myself and hoping to see what they can do on a 383
Race Director
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,749
Likes: 41
I bought one of the first sets of AFR 195 Comp Eliminators and here were the flow numbers:
Flow results are in!
Jason Norris 195 Comp Port Part 1095 AFR
28” test pressure
4.040" Bore
2.08 int 1.60 exh
Valve lift Int. C.F.M. @ 28” Ex. C.F.M @28"
.100 66 53
.200 150 116
.300 211 175
.400 255 208
.500 285 219
.550 298 219
.600 305 219
Exhaust was flowed without a pipe. Intake had a 1206 clay inlet.
Flow results are in!
Jason Norris 195 Comp Port Part 1095 AFR
28” test pressure
4.040" Bore
2.08 int 1.60 exh
Valve lift Int. C.F.M. @ 28” Ex. C.F.M @28"
.100 66 53
.200 150 116
.300 211 175
.400 255 208
.500 285 219
.550 298 219
.600 305 219
Exhaust was flowed without a pipe. Intake had a 1206 clay inlet.
For a 195cc head. Those #'s are unreal!
Below is a comparo of what my AFR 1040's flowed. Regular off the shelf. These are not the comp port!
.200 lift(intake/exhaust)AFR-143/113
.300 lift(intake/exhaust)AFR-199/161
.400 lift(intake/exhaust)AFR-246/195
.500 lift(intake/exhaust)AFR-276/214
.600 lift(intake/exhaust)AFR-286/218
Comparing the #'s, I am pleased with how well my exhaust/intake flowed compared to the more expensive competition port. Jason you must be pleased with those flow #'s.
Last edited by 88BlackZ-51; Apr 13, 2008 at 02:57 PM.
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,518
Likes: 7
From: Valencia CA
For a 195cc head. Those #'s are unreal!
Below is a comparo of what my AFR 1040's flowed. Regular off the shelf. This are not the comp port!
.200 lift(intake/exhaust)AFR-143/113
.300 lift(intake/exhaust)AFR-199/161
.400 lift(intake/exhaust)AFR-246/195
.500 lift(intake/exhaust)AFR-276/214
.600 lift(intake/exhaust)AFR-286/218
Comparing the #'s, I am pleased with how well my exhaust/intake flowed compared to the more expensive competition port. Jason you must be pleased with those flow #'s.
Below is a comparo of what my AFR 1040's flowed. Regular off the shelf. This are not the comp port!
.200 lift(intake/exhaust)AFR-143/113
.300 lift(intake/exhaust)AFR-199/161
.400 lift(intake/exhaust)AFR-246/195
.500 lift(intake/exhaust)AFR-276/214
.600 lift(intake/exhaust)AFR-286/218
Comparing the #'s, I am pleased with how well my exhaust/intake flowed compared to the more expensive competition port. Jason you must be pleased with those flow #'s.
Note with an exhaust flow tube (simulating a header which is the right way to flow it), you will see a legitimate 15 CFM gain at the bigger lift numbers.
The 195 Comp head is arguably the best 23' head in the new Eliminator series I have designed....pound for pound that head is an animal (huge flow in a small package) but the standard port is no slouch either....the biggest difference is the standard port is done between .500 and .550 lift (that's usually where it peaks). The new Comp package however outflows our former 227 Comp package from the crack of the valve to .600 lift and does it with 30-35 less cc's and a slightly smaller valve.
I will be dyno testing a pump gas 327 (old school engine) on Tuesday with a set of our 195 Comp heads, a Super Vic intake and an 830 Holley, and a solid roller cam in the mid 250's @ .050.
With the fact the conservative cross section is so perfect for a high winding 327 and the fact the heads legitimately flow 300+ CFM my air dyno pegs this engine to exceed 525 HP and peak over 7000 RPM carrying very flat towards 7800 or so. Don't forget guys....were talking pump gas here (at close to 11.5 to 1 which it will tolerate thanks to the bleed off from the overlap of the fairly healthy cam). Anything over 500 for that little displacement would be very impressive but I have my sights set higher.
If I remember I will update this thread with the results....cant wait for Tuesday as I have been wanting to see what these heads are capable of in an aggressive small displacement configuration for some time.
Tony
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; Apr 13, 2008 at 05:08 PM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,080
Likes: 2
From: Pittsburgh PA
the biggest difference is the standard port is done between .500 and .550 lift (that's usually where it peaks).
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,518
Likes: 7
From: Valencia CA
Anyway....flow that same port with an intake in front of it and not a radius plate (we do run our cars with intakes of course) and watch that dynamic change substantially (and watch a notable flow loss as well). Then there is the fact an engine NEVER see's a steady high lift state only brief nano second peaks which would never provide enough time for the air to "back up" even if the intake didn't delay the onset of that happening (but it always does and sometimes significantly).
My own 383 that's currently in my car....heads back up like crazy on the bench with a typical radius plate after .570 lift (but has huge area under the curve with killer low and mid lift flow and a solid peak at .570)
I run a .660 lift solid street roller (mechanical) and its one of the strongest (if not the strongest) pump gas 383 LS engines I have seen (540+ RWHP....over 610 flywheel). Conventional wisdom would have said that combo might not be too effective due to the backing up situation....obviously real world results prove otherwise and the reason (or some of them) stem from what I stated above.
As I said....I could write a page about this topic but I wont bore you guys.
Long story short....dont worry about it too much. If you have solid flow numbers across the board (good lows and mids with a solid peak #), and pull that off with a minimal cross section (which equals big airspeed), you will likley make alot of horsepower and be smiling when the smoke clears.
Cheers,
Tony
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; Apr 13, 2008 at 10:29 PM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,080
Likes: 2
From: Pittsburgh PA
Anyway....flow that same port with an intake in front of it and not a radius plate (we do run our cars with intakes of course) and watch that dynamic change substantially (and watch a notable flow loss as well). Then there is the fact an engine NEVER see's a steady high lift state only brief nano second peaks which would never provide enough time for the air to "back up" even if the intake didn't delay the onset of that happening (but it always does and sometimes significantly).
I havent seen anyone flow a head with a HSR intake on it like i'm gonna run
i wish i could take it to a local shop and see the real numbers but i'm not totally worried,just had a little concern. Any little bit of hp i can get i'll take it. I'll definately keep you updated on my numbers this 383 makes with your heads. I'm expecting good things
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Verdad Gallardo
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 81,241
Likes: 3,063
From: altered state
St. Jude Donor '05
I run a .660 lift solid street roller (mechanical) and its one of the strongest (if not the strongest) pump gas 383 LS engines I have seen (540+ RWHP....over 610 flywheel).
Last edited by cv67; Apr 14, 2008 at 09:15 AM. Reason: streetfire wont post on CF???!!
