stick with 180 cc heads. If you do decide to go with a bigger cube engine, you can probably port the heads some more.
180cc v/s 195cc
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180cc v/s 195cc
This question was asked a couple of weeks ago but ended up a debate over what brand head is better.
Current setup - Early 86, Superram, stock iron heads, stock cam, 4+3, 3.07 rear, long tubes, cat back.
Q1: What are the advantages/disadvantages of a 180cc head vs a 195cc head. Assuming current setup plus cam to match heads and superram.
180 numbers - .2-138/112 .3-188/149 .4-234/167 .5-243/175 .6-245/178
195 numbers - .2-144/106 .3-206/144 .4-242/173 .5-252/195 .6-261/205
Q2: Are there good flat tappet cams for a superram combo, or do I need to retro fit a roller?
Please do not get into a debate over which brand heads to use. I want to know the advantages/disavantages of a 180cc v/s 195cc with a superram...ei: will the 195's move my peak hp 300 rpms higher or does it make a difference? These are the answers I'm looking for. I would love to see some hp numbers from the superram guys, with what size heads they are runing along with what rpm.
Current setup - Early 86, Superram, stock iron heads, stock cam, 4+3, 3.07 rear, long tubes, cat back.
Q1: What are the advantages/disadvantages of a 180cc head vs a 195cc head. Assuming current setup plus cam to match heads and superram.
180 numbers - .2-138/112 .3-188/149 .4-234/167 .5-243/175 .6-245/178
195 numbers - .2-144/106 .3-206/144 .4-242/173 .5-252/195 .6-261/205
Q2: Are there good flat tappet cams for a superram combo, or do I need to retro fit a roller?
Please do not get into a debate over which brand heads to use. I want to know the advantages/disavantages of a 180cc v/s 195cc with a superram...ei: will the 195's move my peak hp 300 rpms higher or does it make a difference? These are the answers I'm looking for. I would love to see some hp numbers from the superram guys, with what size heads they are runing along with what rpm.
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
The 180 are plenty. They will maintain port velocity which, in a TPI setup is important.
The 195s will loose that bottom end snap that TPIs provides.
As far as roller vs. flat, not an issue as long as you can get the right grind on either.
The 195s will loose that bottom end snap that TPIs provides.
As far as roller vs. flat, not an issue as long as you can get the right grind on either.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2001
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From: Athens AL
C7 of the Year - Unmodified Finalist 2021
C4 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
Q1: What are the advantages/disadvantages of a 180cc head vs a 195cc head. Assuming current setup plus cam to match heads and superram.
Assuming this engine is staying as a 350 for the forseeable future, the 180 will be a slightly better matched combination. A 195cc would, in general, lose a little on the low-end to a 180, given a cam like stock or one best fit to SR. 195 would let it breathe better at top end, so yes it could move the power peaks up a few hundred RPM. I would recommend that if you were going 383 at some point.
Q2: Are there good flat tappet cams for a superram combo, or do I need to retro fit a roller?
There are some you can use, like the 74213, which is supposed to be an equivalent to the 74219 that everyone uses with SR. (224/234 @050", .465/.488, 112 LSA) At any rate, you will want something with a duration spec'd around 220/220. You could convert to roller and use the 219 as well.
Pro
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 635
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From: New Jersey
underPar, I have 180 iron eagles (cast iron) my 355 with a super ram and I have a LT1 conversion intake that I tried first and for a cam I tried a Crane 841 which is a GM 847 (Crane grinds some of GM cams) and I tried a GM Hot Cam. The heads were purchase bare a cleanup, they flow 250cfm @.500 int and 190cfm exh. The problem I had was the exhaust. You need a gooooood exhaust. The car ran the best with the SR and 847 but I didn't have a good exhaust on the car then, now It has the hot cam with 1.5RR and 3" true dual and X pipe and it run the same as it did with the bigger cam. But I know that the 847 will really work now since I change the exhaust and I have a 9.5" 3000 stall that is ready to go in as soon as I recover for surgery in two months
Randy
Randy
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Joined: May 2006
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From: Salem NH
This question was asked a couple of weeks ago but ended up a debate over what brand head is better.
Current setup - Early 86, Superram, stock iron heads, stock cam, 4+3, 3.07 rear, long tubes, cat back.
Q1: What are the advantages/disadvantages of a 180cc head vs a 195cc head. Assuming current setup plus cam to match heads and superram.
180 numbers - .2-138/112 .3-188/149 .4-234/167 .5-243/175 .6-245/178
195 numbers - .2-144/106 .3-206/144 .4-242/173 .5-252/195 .6-261/205
Q2: Are there good flat tappet cams for a superram combo, or do I need to retro fit a roller?
Please do not get into a debate over which brand heads to use. I want to know the advantages/disavantages of a 180cc v/s 195cc with a superram...ei: will the 195's move my peak hp 300 rpms higher or does it make a difference? These are the answers I'm looking for. I would love to see some hp numbers from the superram guys, with what size heads they are runing along with what rpm.
Current setup - Early 86, Superram, stock iron heads, stock cam, 4+3, 3.07 rear, long tubes, cat back.
Q1: What are the advantages/disadvantages of a 180cc head vs a 195cc head. Assuming current setup plus cam to match heads and superram.
180 numbers - .2-138/112 .3-188/149 .4-234/167 .5-243/175 .6-245/178
195 numbers - .2-144/106 .3-206/144 .4-242/173 .5-252/195 .6-261/205
Q2: Are there good flat tappet cams for a superram combo, or do I need to retro fit a roller?
Please do not get into a debate over which brand heads to use. I want to know the advantages/disavantages of a 180cc v/s 195cc with a superram...ei: will the 195's move my peak hp 300 rpms higher or does it make a difference? These are the answers I'm looking for. I would love to see some hp numbers from the superram guys, with what size heads they are runing along with what rpm.
For a stock TPI, sure the 180cc heads will be ok.
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/al...t-efi-intakes/
-- Joe
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rlane5 - What numbers are you putting down and at what rpms? It looks like you have a similar setup to what I am planning on building.
Right now I have the worst heads put on a c4. I know either head will be a major improvement.
vader86 - I have read over your site, and have spent hours searching. Do you know of any dyno graphs that I could compare 180cc heads v/s 195 cc heads either on a worked tpi or superram?
I have seen a couple tests but one was on a 400in sbc and the other was with a mini ram, so naturally the 195 was a better fit in those cases. I would just like to find out how much I low end torque I would give up and how much hp I would gain by going with the 195s. Right now the car makes 245hp/338tq at the rears.
Right now I have the worst heads put on a c4. I know either head will be a major improvement.
vader86 - I have read over your site, and have spent hours searching. Do you know of any dyno graphs that I could compare 180cc heads v/s 195 cc heads either on a worked tpi or superram?
I have seen a couple tests but one was on a 400in sbc and the other was with a mini ram, so naturally the 195 was a better fit in those cases. I would just like to find out how much I low end torque I would give up and how much hp I would gain by going with the 195s. Right now the car makes 245hp/338tq at the rears.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: One day you're a Comet...the next day you're dust... Arkansas
If you are staying with the Superram it depends on where you want the power. I would go with the 195's and the biggest cam you can comfortably drive.
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Michael S. Palmer
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
The SR is designed to be a mid RPM performer, which the smaller heads are better suited.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2001
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From: Athens AL
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vader86 - I have read over your site, and have spent hours searching. Do you know of any dyno graphs that I could compare 180cc heads v/s 195 cc heads either on a worked tpi or superram?
I have seen a couple tests but one was on a 400in sbc and the other was with a mini ram, so naturally the 195 was a better fit in those cases. I would just like to find out how much I low end torque I would give up and how much hp I would gain by going with the 195s. Right now the car makes 245hp/338tq at the rears.
I dont know where any are, but I do recall seeing a few. I think that was on 3rdgen. I dont remember all the details of the motor, but recall thinking that there wasnt going to be a big difference for most streetable combos. Your rwtq number isnt going to be much different, the peak will just be a little north of where it'd be with 180s, shouldnt matter with newer port designs. Because of that, I dont think they'll give anything up until around 6000, and should be more responsive. If you want to run it higher than that, and are building the motor to do it right, then 195s.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: One day you're a Comet...the next day you're dust... Arkansas
John, I am beginning to believe you don't know near as much as you think you do. You have been wrong many times on your own car. I stand by my recommendation, it depends on what he wants to accomplish as I said.
Pro
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 635
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From: New Jersey
With the super ram the bigger cam did make more power, and it wasn't tune (chip) properly and I did not have a good exhaust on it. I was using a Gen 6 DFI which I was clueless dial it in, and it a Speed Desity which harder to dial in whith a large duration cam. I try different setups a on to the track,
Randy
Randy
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
I don't think we disagree. I struggled with the 195/180 debate when I picked my heads. I was looking at the Patriot 195s. Since I went with Brodix, who does not have a 195, the choice was 200 or 180.
Patriot guys recommended the 195. Brodix guys recommended the 180. Engine builder who I purchased the heads through, was on the fence.
I went with 180s becuase I felt the SR was more setup for 5500 RPMs and down, plus, that's typically where I drive. I believe that is consistent with your position.
Instructor
Joined: Nov 2004
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From: Texas
If you think your headed for a 383 or larger down the road consider the 195cc heads. For hyd flat tappet cams look at the Lunati Voodoo cams #60102LK or the #60103LK or Comp hyd roller lobe #3192 ground on a 111 w/ 4 degrees of advance. Consider a reduced base circle cam now if your thinking stroker down the road. Might want to have the superram professionally ported while its off.
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From: Bergen County, NJ Democrats, doing for the country what they did for Michigan
It's the best bang for the buck if a hypothetical 40 HP pull a number out of your *** estimate BEST CASE is worth $700.
If you think that a POSSIBLE NO GAURANTEE 40HP, probably closer to 20 (as long as we're pulling numbers out of our asses) is worth the extra coin, then all means.
There's also Edlebrock, Patriot, Brodix, TFS, and others that make perfectly acceptable products.
Race Director
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From: oregon
AFR and Pro Action have always been the best bang for your buck, at least on the flow bench. No other 180cc head flows 260+ cfm @.500 lift out of the box besides those two. at least none i know of. what i would like to see is a 180 and 200cc head that flow almost the same cfm numbers. like a really good 180 and a pretty good 200. see what happens on the dyno. you would think the 180 would win with port velocity but at what point does the 180 stall that same velocity? reason says it will be lower than a 200.