Shortys vs 1 5/8 Longtubes
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 9,946
Likes: 38
From: South Carolina
St. Jude Donor '03 & '05
I think this is Valid. If you have a low HP engine, ie L98 or a stock LT1, shortys vs Long tubes isnt just an economical issue, its good sense to think which way would be better.
If you want emission compliance then do shortys, as SLP makes some nice ones. But if you want LT's, you need to bypass your cats or get some bullet cats to allow compliance.
I know some shortys are more expensive than Long Tubes, but some long tubes are very expensive.
Now, my LT1 396 did see a difference between Shortys and Long Tubes, about 20 hp and 25ft/lbs torque at the rear wheels, which is a good amount. But, my engine needs the LT's as it is a Higher Hp engine, and its benefits more than a low hp engine.
Its kinda like a comment, "I want the loudest exhaust possible" Well you need to realize the more air you push through the exhaust the louder it will be.
Well, the higher hp engines need the volume allowed by LT's to realize their potential, while a low 250-300hp engine, wont see the benefits as much, so you wont see a big gain, as the factory exhaust on Vettes isnt all that bad for L98/LT1's.
Okay, off the soap box.
If you want emission compliance then do shortys, as SLP makes some nice ones. But if you want LT's, you need to bypass your cats or get some bullet cats to allow compliance.
I know some shortys are more expensive than Long Tubes, but some long tubes are very expensive.
Now, my LT1 396 did see a difference between Shortys and Long Tubes, about 20 hp and 25ft/lbs torque at the rear wheels, which is a good amount. But, my engine needs the LT's as it is a Higher Hp engine, and its benefits more than a low hp engine.
Its kinda like a comment, "I want the loudest exhaust possible" Well you need to realize the more air you push through the exhaust the louder it will be.
Well, the higher hp engines need the volume allowed by LT's to realize their potential, while a low 250-300hp engine, wont see the benefits as much, so you wont see a big gain, as the factory exhaust on Vettes isnt all that bad for L98/LT1's.
Okay, off the soap box.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 777
Likes: 1
From: Fort Worth Texas
I was Shocked to to see that a Full system on a 96 LT1 only made 9 HP gain over stock..see July issue of Vette magazine. Page 44, Stainless Works LT headers and a complete all new stystem Random cats, X pipe and high flow mufflers.
All that money for 9 HP......... until I install a 396 kit in my LT4 (0.020 over) a Borla cat back and factory manifolds will do fine.
Also on page 34 Vette mag. there is a C4 with Tri-Y headers that there have been posts about fit and performance.
Safety Car
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,290
Likes: 140
From: Salem NH
When I built the vette I went with long tubes, 1 3/4. I'm now back to 1 3/4 shorty headers (hooker 2061) on the vette. I guess perhaps the long tubes might get 5-10 hp over the shorty headers, but when you have 500 flywheel horsepower to begin with does 5-10 horse really matter??
I have a list of reasons why I scrapped the long tubes, but most of them are personal preference. I get a chuckle every time I read about people putting long tubes on a L98.
-- Joe
Advanced
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
From: Lake Jackson TX
I've had shorties and LT's on my 383.
I ran 11.93 @ 116.86 with Hooker shorties, blown stock cats, Dr. Gas X-Pipe, and Borla catbacks. (at Houston Raceway Park)
I swapped in EM 1 3/4" LTs, random tech cats, and retained my x-pipe and borlas. I went back to the track (on a different day) and it managed a 12.0 @ 117ish.
I believe the true benefits of running longtubes is when you remove the exhaust and run open headers. My Air-Fuel ratio jumped half a point leaner when I removed the exhaust. I had to add fuel to the tables and the car is running the same 1/8 mile times in the hot weather than it did with shorties in cold weather.
I ran 11.93 @ 116.86 with Hooker shorties, blown stock cats, Dr. Gas X-Pipe, and Borla catbacks. (at Houston Raceway Park)
I swapped in EM 1 3/4" LTs, random tech cats, and retained my x-pipe and borlas. I went back to the track (on a different day) and it managed a 12.0 @ 117ish.
I believe the true benefits of running longtubes is when you remove the exhaust and run open headers. My Air-Fuel ratio jumped half a point leaner when I removed the exhaust. I had to add fuel to the tables and the car is running the same 1/8 mile times in the hot weather than it did with shorties in cold weather.
Last edited by FastVette94; May 12, 2008 at 09:06 AM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 7,163
Likes: 61
From: NH
St. Jude Donor '14
I've always used shorty 1 5/8, or 1 3/4 headers in my fbody builds. All of which were faster then everyone in this thread. (based on et avatar, signatues, and dyno graphs).
When I built the vette I went with long tubes, 1 3/4. I'm now back to 1 3/4 shorty headers (hooker 2061) on the vette. I guess perhaps the long tubes might get 5-10 hp over the shorty headers, but when you have 500 flywheel horsepower to begin with does 5-10 horse really matter??
I have a list of reasons why I scrapped the long tubes, but most of them are personal preference. I get a chuckle every time I read about people putting long tubes on a L98.
-- Joe
When I built the vette I went with long tubes, 1 3/4. I'm now back to 1 3/4 shorty headers (hooker 2061) on the vette. I guess perhaps the long tubes might get 5-10 hp over the shorty headers, but when you have 500 flywheel horsepower to begin with does 5-10 horse really matter??
I have a list of reasons why I scrapped the long tubes, but most of them are personal preference. I get a chuckle every time I read about people putting long tubes on a L98.
-- Joe
Sorry, but I think that anyone who tells you that the L98 exhaust isn't restrictive is crazy. Good intake and exhaust mods are key for the L98 to unlock the potential it should have had from the factory.
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 12,264
Likes: 88
From: O'Fallon Missouri
Looks to me like the rest of your combination doesn't support the top end to show the gains you WOULD'VE made had the exhaust had the air available to move. You're seeing the gain on the low end because the exhaust has the air available, but only so much is going to go through your set of heads once you start getting the revs up.
About a year after the long tube install I changed camshafts. Took the car to the track recently and had 4 runs at 119+ mph. So the car is making decent HP. I would like to see the difference in shortys vs long tubes with my current combination.
Also, the same show tested 1 5/8 longtubes vs 1 3/4 longtubes on a mildly built 383 over the weekend. The 1 3/4 made ~10 hp/tq more than the 1 5/8.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,867
Likes: 17
From: Phoenix Arizona
Interesting thread. I'd like to see dyno results of a 383 LT-1/4 going from shorty to LT headers, as that's what I'm about to do.
Judging by what I've read here, I don't know if a 10 HP gain is worth the $1800 I'm about to spend on installed headers and high-flow cats.
Judging by what I've read here, I don't know if a 10 HP gain is worth the $1800 I'm about to spend on installed headers and high-flow cats.
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Safety Car
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,290
Likes: 140
From: Salem NH
Whats the point with the "my car is the fastest in the WHOLE thread" routine?
Sorry, but I think that anyone who tells you that the L98 exhaust isn't restrictive is crazy. Good intake and exhaust mods are key for the L98 to unlock the potential it should have had from the factory.
Sorry, but I think that anyone who tells you that the L98 exhaust isn't restrictive is crazy. Good intake and exhaust mods are key for the L98 to unlock the potential it should have had from the factory.
It is probably restrictive for a 450+ hp application. An L98 is what 245hp give or take, falls flat on its face around 4800rpm. I think for the 3-6 hp an L98 picks up isn't worth the money..
But besides that, my point was simply that most people don't need long tube headers. I'll agree that they are a hair better than short tube, but most people won't notice 5-10 hp.
-- Joe
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 24,017
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St. Jude Donor '10
So am I to understand that my stock LT4 will make the same numbers with shorties as it would long tubes?
I have a Corsa system sitting in my garage that I was waiting to install when I bought some long tubes. Sounds as if I might as well buy some shorties as it will be cheaper.
I have a Corsa system sitting in my garage that I was waiting to install when I bought some long tubes. Sounds as if I might as well buy some shorties as it will be cheaper.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 777
Likes: 1
From: Fort Worth Texas
If your LT4 is near stock no 383 or 396 I would just install the cat back. As you have it now.But............
From what I have seen in the last 9 years of looking at LT4 dyno charts the stock 2 3/4 inch GM exhaust only needs to have the resonator cut off and a X pipe welded in it's place and a good Pair of Magna( any high flow mufflers with 2 3/4 inch inlets.) Now you have a 2 3/4 inch cat back that flows better than my 2 1/2 Borla ( or Corsa) 2 1/2 cat back. I did not find out about this trick until After I spent the money on a new cat back and traded my stock cat back for a smoked top.
Our Lt4 stock cat back goes down to 2 1/2 at the rear mufflers and at the front and back of the resonator. From what I have seen headers on a stock LT4 do not really gain that much until you make some Big Mod's to the engine. Then LT Headers Rock over Shorties.
If you just Have to install headers go with some coated long tubes( with air connectors) with HP bullet cats and all 4 o2 sensors so if/when you go bigger with your CI you have the best headers for the new upgrade. And you are smog legal. Your money. Do it just one time.
From what I have seen in the last 9 years of looking at LT4 dyno charts the stock 2 3/4 inch GM exhaust only needs to have the resonator cut off and a X pipe welded in it's place and a good Pair of Magna( any high flow mufflers with 2 3/4 inch inlets.) Now you have a 2 3/4 inch cat back that flows better than my 2 1/2 Borla ( or Corsa) 2 1/2 cat back. I did not find out about this trick until After I spent the money on a new cat back and traded my stock cat back for a smoked top.
Our Lt4 stock cat back goes down to 2 1/2 at the rear mufflers and at the front and back of the resonator. From what I have seen headers on a stock LT4 do not really gain that much until you make some Big Mod's to the engine. Then LT Headers Rock over Shorties.If you just Have to install headers go with some coated long tubes( with air connectors) with HP bullet cats and all 4 o2 sensors so if/when you go bigger with your CI you have the best headers for the new upgrade. And you are smog legal. Your money. Do it just one time.
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 1999
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St. Jude Donor '10
I hear what youre saying but the 2 3/4" stock system will not outflow the corsa set up. Period. Corsa is a straight thru design and the stock system is not. The Vette doctors tested a Corsa system to 425-450rwhp before measurable hp losses. There are many gains of 20rwhp from just a corsa system on the GSR dyno page. 
Last edited by SurfnSun; May 12, 2008 at 05:53 PM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 777
Likes: 1
From: Fort Worth Texas
I hear what youre saying but the 2 3/4 sections of the stock system will not outflow the corsa set up. Period. Corsa is a straight thru design and the stock system is not. The Vette doctors tested a Corsa system to 425-450rwhp before measurable hp losses. There are many gains of 20rwhp from just a corsa system on the GSR dyno page.
Yes it will, you have removed all the 2 1/2 inch GM parts( resonator and rear mufflers)...and the X pipe is 2 3/4 and the new mufflers is 2 .3/4 As the X pipe is staight thru as is the larger 2 3/4 inch inlets on the replacement mufflers on you old 2 3/4 GM pipes. See you have made a straight thru 2 3/4 inch cat back now. As all the GM pipes left are 2 3/4 inch. The Corsa is a 2 1/2 as is my Borla.
I am a member of GSR, Hutch has been a Big help over the yeras, Jim Mason too. The LT4 mufflers and resonator were the small areas.
I have seen where a Corsa made more HP than a Stock GM catback too as that is why I got the Borla. but they are 2 1/2 and will work Great up to a point then a 23/4 inch will flow more, or a B&B 3 inch cat back for a 450 HP plus engine. It just depends how Big your engine is.
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 24,017
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St. Jude Donor '10
I edited my original quote to better clarify what I was stating. I agree that a 2.75" pipe will flow more than a 2.5, but if you take the entire stock system as a whole and compare it, the Corsa blows it out of the water.
See Power Effects muffler comparisons and you'll see the flow bench results. The LT1 muffler was the worst flowing of the group. Obviously a muffler elim would change things but I seriously doubt the GM resonator flows great. Oddly enough the B&B resonator necks now to 2.5" as well.
See Power Effects muffler comparisons and you'll see the flow bench results. The LT1 muffler was the worst flowing of the group. Obviously a muffler elim would change things but I seriously doubt the GM resonator flows great. Oddly enough the B&B resonator necks now to 2.5" as well.
Last edited by SurfnSun; May 12, 2008 at 05:59 PM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 777
Likes: 1
From: Fort Worth Texas
Yes a Corsa will out flow a Stock LT4 GM exhaust.
Install a the 2 3/4 x pipe and new 2 3/4 inch mufflers and throw away the resonator and you have a Better cat back than any 2 1/2 it's all 2 3/4.
I did not know the 3 inch B&B necked down under 3 inch anywhere, but I have not owned one, Thanks, my neighbor has a new 3 inch custom cat back made to hook up to his 3 inch LT headers with bullet 3 inch cats. His 396 96 GS make over 425 RWHP, he needed it. This system on a stock LT4 would not gain as much as your Corsa, too big as you need some back pressure.
Install a the 2 3/4 x pipe and new 2 3/4 inch mufflers and throw away the resonator and you have a Better cat back than any 2 1/2 it's all 2 3/4.
I did not know the 3 inch B&B necked down under 3 inch anywhere, but I have not owned one, Thanks, my neighbor has a new 3 inch custom cat back made to hook up to his 3 inch LT headers with bullet 3 inch cats. His 396 96 GS make over 425 RWHP, he needed it. This system on a stock LT4 would not gain as much as your Corsa, too big as you need some back pressure.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: Metairie Louisiana
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 777
Likes: 1
From: Fort Worth Texas
Interesting thread. I'd like to see dyno results of a 383 LT-1/4 going from shorty to LT headers, as that's what I'm about to do.
Judging by what I've read here, I don't know if a 10 HP gain is worth the $1800 I'm about to spend on installed headers and high-flow cats.
Judging by what I've read here, I don't know if a 10 HP gain is worth the $1800 I'm about to spend on installed headers and high-flow cats.
If I had your engine, I would change to LT headers to 3 inch collectors and a pair of bullett 3 inch HP cats. My bet is you will see more than 10 HP gain. More with headers Open at the drag Strip
the DRM 480 engine
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,221
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From: Overland Park Kansas
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (appearance mods)
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There are several considerations for headers.
1) The restriction as gas leaves the heads. (True race headers go out several inches before down-turning).
2) Immediate velocity improvements thru header design.
3) Flow behind the headers.
4) Header coatings.
5) Computer/O2 Sensor readings/calibration...
6) Cam overlap.
7) Where is engine peak as compared to header peak?
.
.
.
I agree with posters who think improvements are better than stated (e.g., 20hp/TQ+ improvement in lower rpms). The rpm span of this improvement would lead to lower times at the track. In other words, they're faster -- because they get you to peak faster.
Definitely, the LT header loses it's advantage as the motor "loses steam". So, shories aren't "bad" -- especially in higher rpm ranges. But, don't you want to consider street driving as more important? Don't you want to get to that "equalization" point asap? If not, why consider headers at all?
This is the reason I'm hyped to get into the best low-rpm scavenging header. Hopefully, it's the Tri-Y design....
gp
1) The restriction as gas leaves the heads. (True race headers go out several inches before down-turning).
2) Immediate velocity improvements thru header design.
3) Flow behind the headers.
4) Header coatings.
5) Computer/O2 Sensor readings/calibration...
6) Cam overlap.
7) Where is engine peak as compared to header peak?
.
.
.
I agree with posters who think improvements are better than stated (e.g., 20hp/TQ+ improvement in lower rpms). The rpm span of this improvement would lead to lower times at the track. In other words, they're faster -- because they get you to peak faster.
Definitely, the LT header loses it's advantage as the motor "loses steam". So, shories aren't "bad" -- especially in higher rpm ranges. But, don't you want to consider street driving as more important? Don't you want to get to that "equalization" point asap? If not, why consider headers at all?
This is the reason I'm hyped to get into the best low-rpm scavenging header. Hopefully, it's the Tri-Y design....
gp
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 7,163
Likes: 61
From: NH
St. Jude Donor '14
There are two reasons to go with shorties over long tubes:
Budget
Emissions (visual or other)
Some people here are arguing that shorties aren't that much worse than long tubes, but the fact is that long tubes will make more power than shorties, and as you continue to mod your motor further, the long tubes will help you see bigger gains. For this reason, unless you've constricted by budget or visual inspection concerns, I don't see a reason not to buy long tubes than shorties.
I think that's something we can all agree on, correct?
Budget
Emissions (visual or other)
Some people here are arguing that shorties aren't that much worse than long tubes, but the fact is that long tubes will make more power than shorties, and as you continue to mod your motor further, the long tubes will help you see bigger gains. For this reason, unless you've constricted by budget or visual inspection concerns, I don't see a reason not to buy long tubes than shorties.
I think that's something we can all agree on, correct?