You guys don't know the difference between lobe seperation and intake centerline..

the lobe seperation is 112.

The cam is ground on a 108* intake centerline.

-- Joe

 

That would be .592/.592.

.567 / 1.5 = .378

So your numbers on the cam card are correct, you misheard them say .575 lift is all.

-- Joe

 

What are you basing your tuning opinion on? The countless cars you've tuned? You have never done anything to a car, let alone tune one.

Again, you don't have any first hand experience with anything resembling this car. You don't have, nor have you ever built, a stroker. You've never even installed a cam in a stock cube motor. Everything, all your knowledge (or lack there of) is based purely on what others have told you. Don't get me wrong, others can impart knowledge, but for you to come in her and spout off opinions about how difficult the car will be to tune, or how the cam will act, is borderline retarded. You have as much experience with motors as I have with going to the moon. If I talked to a bunch of astronauts, gathered their opinions, and watched the space shuttle taking off a couple times; does that qualify me as an expert on space flight? No. Your knowledge base, while large, is made up of ZERO first hand information.

Don't get me wrong, pass on your thoughts, but qualify them as others opinions that your are blatantly plagiarizing. Be sure to mention that you have never actually done anything, and changed your mind on your combination 100's of times before finally committing. After that, I'm sure most people will give your opinion the proper weight in the conversation, which is absolutely zero.

Again, based on what actual knowledge? NONE. You've done an immense amount of reading on the subject, I'll give you that. You have no business recommending things to people though.

Is that what you had to do when you had your 427 small block? Oh wait, that's right, you have a stock car, so you really have no idea what you are talking about. There are tons of 396 cars out there with the factory cooling system that cool just fine. Cars with more miles, more crap in front of the radiator, and power adder cars with much more power than he'll be making.

Why not be quiet when you don't know what you are talking about? Why this need to spout off all the time? You don't KNOW anything beyond what you've read on the Internet, so chill out.

In all honesty, Rick, as an Ex-friend of yours, you need to chill out for awhile. You're letting your build get to your head, and you are FAR from an expert in any field of auto mechanics, let alone big inch builds. Just sit back for awhile bro, there's no need to answer all the questions and correct all the mistakes. Especially when you don't have the answers and you lack the knowledge to discern the correct things from the mistakes.

 

Bravo, bravo,,,

 

interesting thread!

 

i have 19.5 degrees at .050 on my 11 to 1 383 and its fine at idle. 900 rpms is just fine but it is a touch lopey. STILL very very streetable. Very mild driving car for how it sounds and such. plenty of vaccum for power brakes, still stops good even tho my stock brakes sucks on my camaro but i got a C5 brake kit here to install. But 19 degrees on a 427 is NOTHING. you can run more if you wanted to and still be streetable. my buddy has CC306 cam in a 350 LT1 and its streetable enough for him to daily drive but it sounds mean as hell.

my cam: 109 lsa installed on a 108 centerline. 286/306 230/245.

Your cam lobes are similar to mine so it will be smooth and easier on the valve train. That cam will be fine in that 427. i would run that cam in my 383 no problem. my cam peaked at 6300 and yours i bet will peak near 6000.

I have 8.33 dynamic as well and run 93 octane. I've had the car at 39 degrees timing and NO problems. HOWEVER car makes best power at 34 degrees. Efficient heads like it slightly lean near 13.0 to 1 and low timing.

I made 400whp. I expect yours to hit atleast 420.

 

Neat. Jim is building me a mild 421. Nothing is getting to my head. Out of let's say 4 of my friends that have fast cars, I will still have one of the slowest cars.

And yes your right, I have little to nil experience as does alot of ppl on this board. The difference is, I will admit it.

 

jsup,

I think if you actually get a tuner to tune the PROM for driveability as well as WOT, you will have no issues with the stock ECM.

there are numerous hacks and mods for the $8D mask in your 1990.. I am running one with 3 VE tables and very good resolution for part throttle tuning

good luck

 

I used to have a cc-306 as well.

What's your vac like at idle?

This on a speed density tune?

-- Joe

 

Yep. how does that sit with you?

 

vacuum i have never measured but with my idle set to 950rpm which kinda varies between 900-1000 but mostly centers around 950, i have little problems with the brakes, especially when warmed up. I think my brakes need bleed still as when i did pads and took the rear off the car, my brakes never been the same since (when i was still L98). So even with that my brakes are good enough for most stopping. Stock camaro brakes suck anyway so i cant wait to get the C5's on.

I'm using 89 MAF 165 ecm. It works good so far, i cant complain. However, just a note to add, i'm maxing MAF at roughly 4500-5000 rpms somewhere in there and PE mode enrichment i use to add fuel up top. I'm already adding 80% at 5000 but i think i could still add more with the MAF tables. BUT i'm at 79-80 % at 6000-6400. Max you can add is 99% I'm not sure how much fuel that will be but a 427 with a stout heads/cam/intake may max the computer out

Now with 8D and such, i believe they have better fueling control at higher rpms with all the super hacked versions available.

With the setup above mentioned, i feel confident you can run it on stock computer. My buddy has a slightly more aggressive cammed 406 that runs great on stock 8D mask 730ecm. this 427 should be the same way

There are ways to sorta get around that, possibly by lieing to the computer about the injectors and such but i'm not 100% sure how it works.

 

Perfect. Mine is 112 on 107. Your running tons more duration and lift than me, but you have a much bigger motor.

-- Joe

 

Ahh this is on your thirdgen. I'm curious what your vac is though. When I had the cc-306 on a 10:1 combo vac was around 11hg. My current cam on the same motor is around 12-13hg tops. The 306 was a little bit on the edge with brakes, but still streetable.



Tequilaboy is running some modified code with a ford MAF, so he has a bit more resolution than the stock 255/gs thing.

The "Super aujp" has patches for an extended VE table, but since John isn't running it beyond 6,000 RPM it will be of little benefit. Some of the things that will help is the max inj pw / max VE patch. I can't remember the exact limitation, but to keep his VE tables under 100% he will need to set his cylinder volume + injector constant accordingly, which will hit the stock limit. (so for example, no matter how much he tries to command a PW at upper RPM it will put a roof to that PW). Patches are public, so I'm sure TPIS has that down pat.

On my setup, I'm running idle in open loop. You could also modify the 'idle 02 thresholds' to run a real lean idle, but I found it easier to just run open loop idle. With zero load on the motor there is really no concern or need for correction.

The ECM won't be a problem. I love tuning map cars, but I'll admit with big cams it becomes a little limiting in regards to resolution.

Lots of tricks. He may run into injector trouble too down the road, but I think he went with the 40s and not the 42s so maybe ok. I guess it depends on how short of a pw those injectors will deal with, vs how much fuel he needs at 5500.

-- Joe

 

My injectors are flow matched at 42#s....they are Bosch I purchased from Jon at FIC. Green tops.

Is this going to be a problem? Jon had to order 10 sets to get me a matched set.

 

i got flowmatched 42's on my 383 but again, i got MAF ecm setup so i'm sure the idle tuning and stuff are abit different. 42's are more than enough for your motor. You probly wont need the full capability of those injectors as i think they are good for like 500whp which you shouldnt be hitting although in the lower 400's is almost certain. you dont wanna go too small tho so i think 42's will be doable with your engine. I have no experience with the 8d so others will have to advise.

i dont remember what injectors my buddy was using on his miniram 406. i'd bet atleast 36's

 

Why did you buy a matched set of injectors with a miniram? I would have had Jon flow test an unmatched set, hoping a few of them pushed a hair more fuel than the others so you can stick them on the cylinders that run a little leaner.

That's the only downside to the miniram + lt1, some cyls run leaner than others. On the LT1, if you look at the bin on the sequential fire ECM's they have a cylinder offset trim so some cyls have a slightly higher pulse multiplyer to try and correct the problem.

Buying "flow matched" injectors is a huge waste of money. even the absolute best miniram, the absolute best CNC ported heads, etc is going to have slightly more or less airflow to some cylinders than others. So you spend a lot of money and time making sure your fuel delivery is dead nuts on, when your air delivery is not.

Other than that, the 42s should be fine.

-- Joe

 

I think 36# is probably enough for Johns motor.

A naturally aspirated motor, with proper quench will be around a .5 BSFC.. 600hp, 50psi of fuel, 36# injectors will have a duty cycle of
95%.

On a 600hp motor, shifting at 5500rpm, in the 1/4 mile, John will see this duty cycle for about a second total.


I'd rather run higher fuel pressure and less injector, than more injector and lower fuel pressure. Especially in a miniram where the injector sits WAY WAY out of the airstream, and relies on higher pressures to help atomize the fuel.

I know Bruce + crew used to gripe about keeping duty cycle under 80%, which is good advice for something like a boat that stays at 5500 RPM for an hour at a time. For a street/strip car, your only in those upper RPMs for a very brief period of time. Guys like Jesse run static in the upper RPMs with no issue.

And, I don't think John will see 600 crank horse power, so 42s are probably way overkill but if he wants to add nitrous or something later on he's all set.

-- Joe

 

i'm adding nitrous so i went with 42's to make sure i had a good amount of fuel but i'm going with a wet kit so the fuel part is taken care of by the nitrous fuel solenoid. but just in case the jets dont have enough fuel, i'll have plenty of injector

i've also heard the 80% cycle duty thing and thats one reason i got 42's instead of 36's


On a side note, you really think this 427 will peak at 5500? i think it has near 6000 rpms in it. I cant find it right now, but i remember seeing a few dynos of a 427 with superram/miniram and several cam grinds that were showing some good numbers and i believe over 6000 rpm peaks if not around that. Cam specs i think were in the 240 range as well

 

All the ones I've seen from them (stage V, 500. tune) for various bigger inch combos have a maxed upper ve (99.61 @2400 and up) and cyl. volume change. That actually works fine, because on the a-4 at that point you just add it in PE., and it won't transition as fast from pe into a lower kpa and c.l. like a car w/a manual does. Obviously though, the entire upper ve will still need to be dialed. I use the lower 02 thres. seems to control idle pretty well.... you're right, there are a few ways to work it. I agree a 42 being plenty big enough, I don't think he will be anywhere near a problem w/dc. (provided inj. constant isn't set to high etc.) and besides, there are ways to lower the dc. if needed.

 

Jon at FIC insisted on flow matching for me. He's been an following this build, as has his son who races. He did it for me at no charge, as a favor.

I figured couldn't hurt.

Nitros in the future is not a crazy thought.