All,

I'm at wits end with the blue one (87' C4). Replaced a starter that had a 'heat soak' problem with the solenoid and am now rewarded with an intermittent starter problem. It is a brand new starter and solenoid. Have removed the starter twice and had it at the shop that rebuilt the starter and it worked perfectly on the bench, multiple times.

Also replaced both battery cables (what an absolute b!tch!), cleaned all the connections as well and the areas where the starter and the grounds connect to the block with degreaser. So it has brand new cables too.

Despite all of this, I get 'click-click' from the solenoid and then a strong start. Sometimes it's one click and a start. Other times, it takes three, four even five tries. Sometimes, it will start, right up on the first try!!!

Any thoughts or help on this would be highly appreciated!

 

This may be a bad solenoid. Even if it is new, it may still be the problem. Ask the rebuilder to order a heavy duty solenoid, one with 132 wraps. Some new solenoids only come with 100 wraps. Or you could ask for a new mini starter.

 

It's possible that the solenoid is bad. I would also check the battery terminals to make sure the terminals themselves are not loose. Tightening the bolts on the cables is one thing but if one of the terminals has loosened or started to corrode internally, the starter may not be getting enough current to operate.

But you said the starter is new but you had it back at the shop that "rebuilt the starter". So is it a rebuild or brand new from a parts place? Sometimes a rebuild can have other problems internally that the rebuilder can miss or not check.

 

What they said

 

Thanks all, for the replies. Pulled the starter yet again last weekend and it worked perfectly on the bench. Reinstalled and still, the intermittent click of the solonoid. Then I went to Harbor Freight and got a remote starter. It started easily, every single time.

Next step was to check the voltage from the ignition key (Purple wire) and when it clicked, it was only 6.6 volts. According to the FSM takes at least 7 V to fully engage the solonoid. When it worked, I was getting just a little over 8.6 and sometimes 9, clearly above the minimum to energize the solonoid fully.

The low voltage reading also caused the digital dash to turn darker than normal under cranking conditions.

So it may be either the purple wire (and I replaced the connector on the end) or the ignition switch. The red wire off the solonoid, that is hooked up along with the battery cable goes straight to the ignition switch. When you turn the key all the way, the connection is made between the red wire and the purple wire to energize the solonoid.

I will be checking for 12v INTO the switch with the red wire and 12v out of the switch at the purple wire. If I get the 12v out, then the wire is the culprit and it is a straight hook up to the solonoid. It doesn't go through anything before it gets there to the best of my knowledge. If I don't get the equivalent voltage out, then it's the ignition switch.

The ignition switch and the key cylinder are two different parts and oddly enough, in the FSM, there are only two wires running out of the key cylinder to the ignition switch, but multiple wires running out of the ignition. How do the two wires out of the ignition cylinder create all the multiple conditions in the ignition switch (Acc, Run, Off and Start)?

The key cylinder in this car is pretty worn out and loosey-goosey. Another possibility is one of the wires grounding out inside the steering column.

Any thoughts on the relationship between the ignition key cylinder and the ignition switch module?

PS: Gawd, I hate intermittent problems, but I'm getting closer on this one!

Thanks all!

 

Don't quote me on this, but my gut is to say, "Hell, it could be the VATs system acting up..."

http://www.joestradingpost.com/vats/index.html

 

I had a brand new key made yesterday, but I have to agree with you too, because the key cylinder runs through the VATS system and the Neutral Safety Switch before coming back to the ignition switch, so one of those may be causing the voltage drop to the ignition switch. Also, there is a VAT fuse as well and the firewall connector, plus other connectors that need to be checked.

 

You need to measure voltage from the battery through each device to the starter solenoid to find out where 6 volts is being dropped. Power to the starter solenoid goes from the battery to the start junction block behind the battery to a fusible link to the firewall connector to the ignition switch to the start enable relay to the clutch safety switch (gear selector sw if automatic) back through the firewall connector to the starter solenoid. You can put a low value high power resistor (like a 1 ohm 25 w resistor) in place of the starter solenoid and with the ign in crank position measure the voltage from the battery to the resistor at each electrical device and find out where the voltage drop is. You only hit crank position momentarily to measure voltage because the 1 ohm resistor gets 144 watts of power and wil damage a 25 watt resistor. Or you could use a headlight or some other high current device that can take the power.
My money is on the clutch safety switch or the start enable relay contacts.

 

The ignition switch is key activated by a rod or link ... it is on the lower steering column foot pedal side ... check it and the connector for high resistance ... aka ... fried wire ends / terminals ... the key switch itself has two tiny guage wires for the VATS chip but is actually just a mechanical actuator for the aforementioned ignition switch

 

jfb ,C409. thanks so much for the excellent information. jfb, is the starter junction block, that 'tie-in' point, where all the positive wires go to a common junction, just behind the battery? And on the resistor tie in, you would detach the red and purple wires off've the starter and use it as a temporary 'load', right?

C409, thanks too, for explaining the relationship between the key cylinder and the switch, I will check that as well!

Lesson learned: just because the solonoid is clicking, doesn't mean it's bad. It may not be getting the 7V mininum to actuate completely, but enough to partially engage or 'click'!

 

Yes the starter block is the bolt behind the battery with 8 red wires. You can leave the large wire connected to the starter. Disconnect the purple wire and put a low valued resistor on it to ground so that you can find out where the 6 volts drop is without the starter occasionally cranking the engine while you are hitting crank postion and measuring voltages.

 

Update: Dropped the steering column and also pulled the top of the dash and the center of the instrument panel. I tested the ignition switch on the pink wire and I'm getting 11.5V in Terminal Ign 1, but only 6 to 7 volts out of the Yellow Wire - Solonoid Terminal. The FSM says to replace the Ignition Switch if you're getting less than 7 volts at the Solonoid. So I'm leaning towards replacing the Ignition switch, as this looks to be the source of the problem.

The Starter Enable Terminal is at the other end of the yellow and it's getting the same low voltage that's coming out of the Ignition Switch.

Thanks all, for your help with this complex, but frustrating problem!