I have 92 6Spd 117,000 Mi. I bought a cheap rebuilt starter from Kragen. The issues i'm having is the starter is very intermittent. If i drive for more than 15 minutes and stop, i have to wait a few minutes before it starts. My fellow forum members suggested the starter might have heat soak issues. I have no check engine lights. Can anyone suggest a starter that does not cost an arm and a leg? Thanks.

 

You say it won't start once warmed up, but you don't say if the engine is turning over, not turing at all, turning over but slow.....

Fill in the missing info and answers will appear!

 

if it will not crank take a volt meter and see if you have 12 volts on the large lug on the starter if you have 12 volts there take your volt meter and see if you have 12 volts on the S term. on the starter while someone is turning the key to start. If you have both it is starter if you dont have one or the other you will have to look for another problem.

 

Let me venture a guess, you correctly identified your problem when you said "cheap" starter from....... Yours is a Nippondenso mini starter that should not be effected by heat. Were I in your shoes I would make Kragens give you a better starter even if you had to pony up a few more dollars.

 

Can you hear the starter solenoid click?

 

Sounds like heat. Got a Cat nearby?

 

No solenoid click when it acts up. This is the second starter from Kragen. I will do the volt check. It is right next to the passenger side CAT.

 

You need to connect a little light bulb to the solenoid wire and place it somewhere you can see it. What you need to do is confirm power to the solenoid when it acts up. It _may_ be sticking and that's why no noise, but that would be an extremely uncommon starter problem so it is just as likely something in your car is cause a loss of power instead..

Most problems with the solenoid have to do with it clicking, but not sending power to the main windings. That said, I have a bad solenoid on my work truck, sticks when really cold out. Tap it a couple times and it moves freely..

 

You may have a voltage drop to the solenoid itself. Get a remote starter for less than $10 at Harbor Freight and hook up one end to the battery and another to the solenoid input from the ignition. Hit the button and see if it starts. If it starts repeatedly, again and again with no problems, then it's not the solenoid.

Not sure about the late C4's, but on the early C4's, only 6.6 to 7 volts actually makes it to energize the solenoid after going through the VATS and numerous circuits. You'll never get a full 12v from the ignition key circuit to the solenoid (and the Factory Service manual confirms this)!

 

First, clean your battery cables and battery terminals and reinstall your battery cables.
Sounds more like VATS then a starter motor. When it won't crank, THAT is the time to do some diagnostics to find out where the problem is. When it won't crank and the starter solenoid won't click, unplug your clutch safety switch and jump it with at least a #14 wire jumper and measure the voltage on the jumper when you hit crank. If you have 12v and no cranking, then your problem is between the clutch safety switch and the starter. See if you have 12v on the solenoid terminal on your starter.
If no 12v on the jumper, then remove the kick panel above the drivers feet and find the two wires from above the steering column going to a 2 pin connector and unplug. With key inserted, measure the resistance across the wires from the steering column, it should measure the same as your key pellet. If over 4% error, you need to replace the ign lock which will have new contacts that make connection to the key pellet. Another possibility is a defective start enable relay which you can hear click when you hit crank on the ign sw. Contacts on that relay may also be defective not passing 12 to the clutch safety switch.

 

Not true. Starter solenoid gets 12v through the ign sw contacts, start enable relay contacts to the clutch or gear selector safety switch then to the starter solenoid. At most I wouldn't expect more than 1/2 volt drop across the circuit from the battery to the starter solenoid.

 

Sorry, but that's what the FSM says and the 87 was barely getting that at time (6.6 volts). All those circuits take their own little chunk of that 12V and the FSM states that it should be at LEAST 6.x volts. It made for intermittent starting on the 87'. Once all the connectors were soldered (at the solenoid and the fusible link from the new battery cable), the problem was solved.

 

I own an 87 and the service manual and the electrical diagnosis manual and I use them frequently when I help posters in this section and I have never seen in either manual that the starter solenoid should get at least 6.x volts. Where is it, I'd like to see it. If you ever have 6 volts of drop across three electrical contacts, you better find out why, one or more of those contacts is defective! I am an electronic engineer, this is why I don't buy the 6.x volts statement!

 

Believe it or not, the most common cause of intermittent no start issues is dirty or corroded batter cable connections or high resistance under 200-600 Amp cranking loads.

You can't easily check cranking loads at home unless you have a clamp on amp meter to use.

But you can do a Voltage drop test with a simple digital DVM meter set to DC volts.

If you see any more than .20 vdc voltage drop across a cranking circuit or single wire(cable), consider it suspect and time for a little more investigation why that is.

Brian

 

I doubt very much that cranking amps for my 87 is 200 or more amps! I will have to borrow my workplace clampon dc ammeter and see what it is. I clean my battery cables and battery posts once a year, otherwise I get stuck somewhere!

 

You've gotten some good suggestions here.

The large terminal with thick wire on the starter should be hot at all times first and foremost. Make sure the nut on it is clean and tight. Then the small terminal on the starter solenoid should see battery voltage when someone inside the car cranks the key. Battery voltage at the small starter terminal causes the solenoid contacts to close and pass current to the starter motor like a high current relay.

As mentioned, checking for battery voltage at the small starter solenoid terminal when starter is not clicking while someone inside the car is turning the key to "crank" position will tell on what side the problem is. This is best done with the use of aligator clip extensions in juction with your multimeter to allow you to run the wires under and out to the side of the car to check instead of behind under it.

Radio Shack sells these packs for a few bucks.



If there is no voltage all you're been doing is taking back perfectly good starters that aren't the problem and not fixing anything and wasting time. If there is voltage the VATS is working. Before you pull the starter again check the battery cranking amps as mentioned.

This is a common symptom of an intermittent VATS glitch that I have personally dealt with in the past. In my case it was a bad Starter Enable Relay not closing. Eventually it left me stranded in a parking lot despite me putting a stupid heat blanket around the starter thinking it was heat soak when it wasn't. I was able to start the car by jumping battery voltage to the starter solenoid directly with a piece of wire to at least get home. As mentioned a dedicated remote starter switch with push button and aligator clip leads connected between solenoid and batter positive terminal can also be used.

If you have stock headers and stock exhaust "heat soak" should not be the problem. The factory did not see the need to add a heat shield or heat blanket. It's possible there was nothing wrong with your old starter in the first place. You need to start doing some testing.

 

You may be surprised how much current a starter motor can draw on cold or hot startup.

We both have 1987 Vettes,
the 1984- 1987 models had the Delco 10 MT High torque starters installed.
They are direct drive starters.
Unless you have changed out to the newer 1988 + gear reduction starter motor.

On a big semi truck with a 600 + ci engine with a 32 MT starter the cold cranking amps below 0 degrees F can run well over 2,000 Amps.

Brian

 

I have the standard starter on my 87 and I am going to measure the starter current and I am going to post it!

 

Ok lol.

The cranking current varies by the working load of the starter motor, state of % of charge of the battery, voltage drop in cables, ambient air temps.

I have found it very interesting too in the past checking like you are going to do/ have.

Electrical and wiring can always be improved on from what GM supplied to us each new.

Copper wiring is expensive as you know too.

Brian

 

Fair enough. I'll grab it tonight after work and post tommorow. I eventually ended up taking it to our mechanic, who is highly experienced and he told me that he commonly does a bypass on the whole GM VAT, clutch relay thing to get 12V to the solenoid and makes sure all the connectors are soldered, because the crimp connectors can drop voltage as compared to a solid soldered joint. If I'm wrong, we've got plenty of crows to dine on around here.