Cliff Harris

I rebuilt a 1989 700r4 and put it in my car about 1500 miles ago and everything was fine until recently. I rebuilt it with a "heavy duty" kit from Dana Wilkes at Pro-Built Transmissions.

Seems OK when cold, gets progressively worse when it gets hot.

I first noticed that it appeared to be slipping in 1st gear with OD on. Then it gradually got worse and worse, slipping in all gears. The latest thing I saw was that it wouldn't downshift at a stop. It was trying to start in 3rd gear, which caused a lot of "slipping". If I manually downshift to 1st or 2nd it's fine. I read in various places that this can be caused by the governor sticking, so I did a remove, massage and reinstall tonight. The valve in the governor seemed to be hanging up. It didn't come out easily and I had to push it out. All nice and slippery now, but I don't know how the car will drive yet.

I couldn't get the governor cover all the way on (about 1/16" gap at the bottom and 1/8" gap at the top), so I don't think I want to drive it like this. I don't know exactly how the governor cover affects the position of the governor and I think it might leak. I know there can be problems if the cover puts too much pressure on the governor, but what happens if the governor can move outward because the cover is loose? Maybe the gear "pulls" the governor inward? I have no idea.

One strange thing was that about a quart of ATF poured out when I got the governor cover off. I'm not sure where it came from so I don't know if that's a problem or not. A poster I saw on another forum said he only got half a shot glass worth, so I'm kinda concerned about this.

More weirdness. When I rebuilt my trans last year I saw 90 PSI at idle in Park. I have a new pressure gauge, so that may explain why I see 75 PSI at idle now and I see about 200 PSI when I pull out the TV cable to max, still at idle. That said, while driving it I saw the pressures go WAY down as it warmed up. When it was hot I was seeing about 50 PSI max, even in 1st or 2nd gear and about 25 in 3rd. I'm using Valvoline Synthetic and I put a bottle of LubeGard in it when I did the rebuild. It seems like the pump is shot. ...and yes, the boost valve C-clip is in the correct groove. The only thing I can think of that might be related to this is that I have an Edge torque converter and it just barely grazed the flex plate when I spun it (fully inserted into the pump). Is it possible that I don't have enough clearance and the converter is somehow stressing the pump and causing wear? I put a new rotor, rings and new vanes in the pump (from Dana's kit) when I did the rebuild. Maybe the pump is sucking air around the filter O-ring?

The TV cable is adjusted correctly and I see the pressure go up when I hit the gas pedal. The TV valve moves freely and everything seems OK there.

I'm baffled by all this and it's way beyond what little expertise I have. Any help, suggestions, etc. would be greatly appreciated. I've been thinking of buying a new pump, but will that solve my problem?

coupeguy2001

sounds like a cracked case

383vett

Wow Cliff. Sorry things didn't work out with all the work you poured into the tranny. I have removed just about every nut and bolt on my car over the past few decades, but other than playing with shift kits and valvebodies, I don't touch auto trannies. They are vodoo for me. I could probably rebuild one, but I wouldn't know what to do if the thing didn't run right. I would recommend a professional taking the tranny apart and checking everything. As far as the quart of oil coming out of the governor cap. If you jack up the drivers side first, and then the passenger side when you put the car up on jackstands, the tranny fluid in the governor area will drain out and you will only lose a couple of drops. If you don't lift the driver's car first, you will lose a good amount. Last thing, when I used to replace the governor cap on the car, I used an old bar type torque wrench with a 3/4" socket to pound on the cap. I could reach above the cap and tap it in with this high tech device. Good luck. Willie

ch@0s

I have a buddy that owns a trans shop. He just went through my trans for me again last week after the converter took it out. I am also in that let the trans experts handle it category.

Cliff Harris

I put in a quart of oil last night just before I left it. This morning there was a huge puddle of trans fluid under it, so I guess having the governor cover all the way in is important. The rest of the trans was perfectly dry after 1500 miles, so the governor cover was the only place it could come from (and it was the only thing I touched last night).

I started out tapping the governor cover on with a small hammer. That progressed to a large hammer. Then I went to a crow bar and a block of wood. Not much room to work in the tunnel with the exhaust system in place. I was tapping on the top of the cover with the curved end of the crow bar, but couldn't get it on further than I stated in the first post. The gasket definitely wasn't sealing, but I was hoping the press fit of the cover in the case would be enough.

[EDIT]
I found out later that the governor cover had a break about an inch long. Apparently it broke while I was prying on it, either to remove it or reinstall it.
[/EDIT]

I did a filter and 6 quart ATF change recently to see if that affected my problem. The O-ring on the filter was VERY loose and almost fell out of the pump when I touched it. Usually it's like they're welded in place, so that bothered me. I had to reuse that O-ring because of problems I had with the new one, so my next step is to put in a new filter. I'm thinking the pump might be sucking air if the O-ring isn't sealing correctly.

I have rebuilt several QuadraJets and did a complete engine rebuild down to the bare block, but this is by far the most complex thing I've ever worked on. A friend of mine told me he thinks they named it "700r4" because it has 700 parts in it...

Matatk

Hey Cliff, I had my governor cover off more times than I care to remember when I was adjusting the governor with the B&M calibration kit. I never got more than a few drops of fluid coming out even when I left the cap off and the governor removed for up to an hour. I found a good way to get the cover back on was using about a 6" piece of 2x4 at an angle wedged against the middle/top of the cover and then tapping the bottom with a dead blow hammer. A little vaseline on the cover lip doesn't hurt, either.

JrRifleCoach

After the nightmare with my 700, it sounds like a pump. Yes pressures are fine but tip off when it gets warm. I also fried the lockup clutch on the TQ.

The fix was a new pump and TQ. Make sure you get an 86 pump, not the 86/87 and older pump.

I also switched to buying gallon bottles of fluid from wally-world until everything worked right. Then a dump and fill with the better stuff. It'll take a few changes until its all out.

The governor cavity should be "dry"
Also if the gov cover is caved in the valve will not have enough room to operate.
Not good.

Cliff Harris

I did the governor massage last night but I didn't want to go out in the dark and try to read the pressure gauge with a flashlight while driving (it's taped to the windshield), so I waited until this morning (and some daylight) to do the test drive. Good thing I did. This is what I found in the garage this morning. Now THAT'S frustrating:



That's the original '86 700r4 on the right. I have an '89 700r4 in the car now. The whole swap started because the original 700r4's front pump bushing walked out and blocked the drainback hole, causing a leak (and that pump was rebuilt, so the idiots that did the rebuild didn't stake the bushing).

...And this picture reminds me that the stupid Rustoleum water-based (huh?) epoxy garage floor paint lifted when water dripped on it.

...And my nice Seiko watch froze when I set it back one hour.

I'm trying to build up enough enthusiasm to go mop up the ATF. It's difficult. I'll be OK once I actually get out there and start doing it...

JrRifleCoach

Sending some mojo your way.

coupeguy2001

Hey Clff,
I know what you are feeling.
On my 86, I got tired of the hard shift into gear thing, and got an 88 trans. I took it all apart, and put it all back together with new parts.
It shifted just fine. but no reverse.
When I first took it apart, I did find the teeth sheared off the second gear clutches, but I thought I fixed all the problems with the new parts.
I ended up with a free trans out of a 92 firebird, and when I put it in, turns out the converter was a high stall converter.
The thing acts like it is slipping most of the time, but when you put your foot in it, it just smokes the tires.
It does the job, but not how I envisioned it.
So, like me, you will have o do another trans removal, and we are getting too old to this every couple months.
Sooner or later, I will find someone to take it apart and figure out what the problem is.
I still have my original trans too, but the smooth transition from neutral to low gear and reverse is enough to keep the 92 trans in the car.
I know it's not a vette trans, but it does work. You might just see if you can pick up a good used working trans somewhere cheap and shorten the tailshaft and swap the speedo gears and tail housing while you get your good one working again.

Cliff Harris

I think it's pretty obvious now that the pump is bad so I ordered a new one.

Now the question is: was it something I did (or didn't do) that caused it to go bad?

The previous owner of the trans told me it had problems before he gave it to me (he replaced it with a ZF 6 speed). It was totally stock behind a 383 with major mods. 95,000 miles. The 3-4 frictions were burned up. He told me 1st gear was "gone", but everything looked OK in that area. Another time I talked with him he didn't remember saying that or what he might have meant by that. ???

Cliff Harris

Well things have progressed I think. Or maybe regressed depending on your point of view.

I put in a rebuilt pump from those guys in Victorville. They mill the two halves flat and match the rotor and vanes to the new thickness. It also has the 0.500" boost valve. After all the pain and strain of getting it out and back in, no change in the pressures.

I was planning on pulling the valve body and going through it, but it just got to be too much guessing on my part. Now I'm leaning toward a blown lip seal. When I rebuilt it I made the mistake of testing a lip seal with 100PSI air. WAY too much pressure and blew out the seal. Maybe it was damaged. I don't know.

One problem was that the TCI torque converter I put in there originally self-destructed after 150 miles and filled the filter with metal bits. I don't know where else those pieces might have gone, though there were NONE in the pan. I've been suspecting that one or more of the valves in the valve body is jammed. The thing that's weird is that it drives normally when cold, so it's a big mystery.

I finally gave up. I took it to the local trans shop and left it. He's busy and couldn't get to it right away. He's going to take it apart and let me know so I can go over there and see what's up. He did say the TV cable was hard to pull and seemed to be hanging up. I did check the TV valve while it was apart and it was moving nicely. It has the TransGo no-stick fix in it. To be continued...

gerardvg

Hi Cliff i agree check your valve body, that regulates pressures to the clutches etc you may have a gasket split or a slight warp in the valve body?!?. Re you have plenty of fluid pressure from your pump.

When my governor failed it prevented the car shifting from first to second or any up shift, no slipping noticed at all. But hated to rev the bejesus out of the engine to get her home

Good luck

Cliff Harris

The trans shop called this morning and I went over there. It's not all apart yet, but they did find some weird stuff.

He told me a snap ring came loose -- he showed it to me and it wasn't really loose, just one end was sticking out a little.

He told me one of the planetaries was floating around in the trans and did some damage. I'm not sure what happened there.

The hub of the input drum is cracked.

He told me I put a snap ring on the wrong side of one of the parts. According to the ATSG manual it's the input ring gear. He said the snap ring that was supposed to be on the shaft side was on the opposite side. I used both the ATSG and Haynes manuals when I put this thing together and I kept all the subassemblies separate, so it's hard for me to understand how I could have done this wrong.

The 1st gear frictions are charcoal. He said they are only used when you shift into 1st gear manually, so that's a mystery. At the end of the time I was driving it I was shifting manually into 1st when the pressure was really low, so maybe that's what caused it.

One other set of frictions is burned. I don't know which gear those are. The other frictions look brand new -- they do have 1500 miles on them.

He hasn't taken the servo valve out yet nor the valve body.

I want him to take the Sonnax hardened stator shaft out of my original pump and put it in the new pump. He was reluctant to do that because I screwed up one of the Torx bolt heads. I told him to grind the head off the bolt or drill it out (could be difficult -- Torx bolt heads are hardened). That Sonnax part costs $70 and I want it in my trans. The "new" pump is rebuilt and the stator shaft is showing some wear on the splines. He didn't think it was bad, but I'd rather have the "good stuff" in there.

383vett

Hi Cliff. I consider myself a pretty competant person when I comes to working on cars. I can and have taken motors apart and built them up. I work with suspensions and brakes and electronics. One thing I will not do is go into the innards of an automatic transmission. Those things are voodoo. I know some on the forum have successfully rebuilt their trannies and some do this for a living. Hats off to them. For the amount of runs I make in a year and the severe beating my tranny goes through, I want a pro to check every part, every tolerance and blueprint the unit for hopefully a troublefree year of racing. Hope your tranny works out. Willie

Cliff Harris

Never having done this before was one of the things that bothered me when I started this project. The pros see the problems every day and know what to look for.

I was unemployed and had a lot of time and not much money. That's the main reason I did it myself. It took about a month, working a few hours a day. A 700r4 is VERY complex.

The books describe a stock trans rebuild, which this was not. It was sometimes difficult to figure out that by adding more clutch disks you had to leave some parts out to make them fit.

Cliff Harris

I got the car back yesterday and drove it a little today. It seems fine so far.

It shifts REALLY hard into 3rd at part throttle, but it did that when I first rebuilt it. The trans guy said it's the torque converter locking up, but I don't believe that. I need to wire up a LED to the torque converter lockup pin on the ALDL connector so I can monitor that. I really hate that shift and I wonder if there's anything I can do to make it a little softer. Maybe it'll "wear in".

The trans shop didn't put the pressure gauge back on the trans, so I need to do that to see how the pressures are.

He said the input drum hub was cracked in two places. The cracks go all the way to the base of the hub. I've read that this can be caused by big torque engines, but mine is stock. The trans did come out of a '89 with a really-built 383, so maybe it was damaged by the previous owner. I don't remember seeing cracks when I built it, but see the previous post about not knowing what to look for.

He also told me he found the missing snap ring from the input ring gear (he thought I left it out). It turns out it was buried in the clutches. He said he's never seen that before.

It turned out costing a lot less than I thought. He quoted me $1400 for labor plus parts and it came to $1438.38. The invoice shows $950 for labor, which just happens to be the amount I paid him to do a stock rebuild on my original trans about 10 years ago (I took it out and put it back in myself, though).

He set my TV cable back two clicks. He said I shouldn't go to WOT or it will pull out and lower my pressures. He didn't know what to do about that. He said low pressures will burn up the transmission. I'm not sure about that one, since I have a .500" boost valve and the pressures are about 50% higher than stock. Another reason to get the pressure gauge back on there.

I'm thinking of putting a temperature sensor in the trans. The 4L60E's have one, but it is part of a pressure sensor. I asked the trans guy if he had an extra one lying around. He did, but didn't want to give it to me. I told him I would take it apart and take out the temperature sensor. I want to wire it into the stock connector. Mine only has three pins (the ground pin isn't used). I wonder if there's a 4-pin version of the stock connector. I also wonder how the TCC lockup solenoid gets its ground connection, since the wiring harness only has two wires (TCC solenoid and 4th gear pressure switch). I guess it's grounded through the mounting tabs, though there is a wire going to the connector (not connected to anything).

hemivett

Same here. I did 1, and it lasted about a year. There is a ton of parts, and it can really be a bitch remembering where, and in what order they went in. But the biggest problem with rebuilding auto's at home is, getting it clean enough. One little fleck of metal can stick a valve, and its over.

Ive even had issues with local shops, and the internet. I bought one from Maddog Trans for my Blazer, for $1800, and after it broke, (6mos old) the shop I had taking it apart said it looked like it was thrown together with used parts. Really?!.....You cant trust anyone!
Now, after 3 years, Im getting an SES light saying "Trans component slipping" WTF! The big problem is, its intermittent, so nobody can find it. The next one I buy will be from TCI, or some other highly respected Co.

So Cliff, I dont think you said. What did the clutches look like, when the shop took it apart? When you started telling the story, I too thought "bad pump". Just wondering if it was totally fried, or if because everything was still fairly new, you were able to salvage something. Good luck at the track. h

Cliff Harris

This is strictly a street car now (daily driver), so this one will never see a track again. I've done Willow Springs 3 times and ran at Firebird in Phoenix many times plus a bunch of autocrosses. Now I race the 2003, soon to be replaced by a 2013 Grand Sport. Since I'm selling the 2003, I thought it might help if I showed the trophies:



The first gear frictions were "charcoal", as I said earlier. They were totally black and really did look like charcoal. The other ones he showed me were missing chunks of friction material. Another set I saw looked perfect, so it was definitely limited to some gears.

Today I heard some torque converter whine at a stop light. Now THAT's scary. It only lasted about 10 seconds, but that's how the other torque converter started its self-destruct mode.

hemivett

Wow nice! Love the color.

Now that you say it again, I do remember reading that. Sorry, I have a brain tumor, and sometimes my memory short circuits.

That sucks about the whine. Sounds like you're having the same luck as me, with my Blazer. h