intake ,exhaust, and either torque converter or cat are not a intake only mod

and i did not say that LT1 intakes were TPI, i said that LT1 intakes could be adapted to be used with TPI L98 engines to result in major performance gains when you claimed "You could spent a ton of money replacing all the parts that make a TPI a TPI (>$1000), or you could simply spend a little time on a hobby and get some major gains for the price of a set of intake gaskets by porting the CFI intake. "

its quite a common mod for L98s actually and requires far less time, effort and money than having to port a CFI intake, and produces far better gains, but for someone who talks so much **** you should have known that

pic related

 

You're right. But mid 13's is also quite a bit better than the "245 hp" you were looking for. In addition, "245 hp" is not apples to apples. By the time "245 hp" came along (89? '90?) the engine had received aluminum heads, and a roller cam of different specifications. Comparing an '84 to an '85 (230 hp) is a better, clearer way to see the difference between CFI and TPI ONLY, and that difference is 25 hp. Anyway, in Jim's car, the converter doesn't change the hp, I was simply disclosing ALL of the information. The meaningful mods for hp were ported intake, dual exhaust (stock manifolds and mufflers)...and he is/was doing quite a bit better than any stock TPI that I am aware of. I notice that you didn't have much to say about my own car either. Hmmm. Bottom line: You can absolutely get ~250 hp from a CFI with porting and tuning alone. Just b/c you may have failed to do it, doesn't mean it can't be done.

The problem with the general perception of "ported CFI intakes" (and likely your perception) is that (and this is important) 99.9% of all people who port their CFI intakes only port match the thing. Some cut back the runners, which does nothing, and some eliminate the EGR passage which also does nothing. The "money" is in cross section of the runner; it needs to be larger, the whole way through. A port match will help some, but the head port is now larger than the cross section of the runner up stream. The whole thing needs porting, most don't do it, and so what we see are a bunch of "ported" CFI intake cars making ~210-220 chp or so. But they didn't port...they port matched. FYI, The car mentioned above put down 220 at the wheels, which is certainly as good or better than most stock TPI cars do.



Soooo...you want him to switch to TPI (that is what you recommended in post #6 & 10)....so that he can then swap it to and LT1? Since you (also) talk so much ****, you MUST obviously know that you can convert a CFI directly to a modified LT1 intake just as easily as you can convert a TPI to the same modified LT1 intake...right? So why the intermediate step of putting a TPI on the thing?

Also, Converting to an LT1 intake typically costs ~$300 to get the work done to convert the intake...after you supply the intake in the first place. After that you have to figure a T-stat solution and fabricate. I think you would be incredibly hard pressed to make a believable case that converting to LT1 intake takes "far less time" than a simple port job on the CFI intake.

You said "unlike crossfire, TPIs have a far larger aftermarket," Bull ****. To make a TPI meaningfully better, you have to replace the lower and the runners at a minimum. That is something like $600.00 for those parts and is functionally a replacement of the entire intake. YOU did exactly that, by replacing your entire intake with an LT1 intake and your motor is not a "TPI" anymore now anyway! Others replace their TPI intakes with HSR's, SuperRams, Minirams, etc...and they're not TPI's anymore either. So, if the solution for meaningfully greater performance from a TPI is to replace essentially the entire intake (and that IS the solution)...how is TPI any better a platform to begin with, than the CFI in regards to mods? In either case, you're swapping the entire intake onto the same basic long block!

YOU recommended that he swap to TPI b/c it's better and you said "at 245HP a stock TPI is far better than any crossfire intake, and even a ported crossfire intake (with the intake porting being the only mod)"
I said BS to that, b/c I know that's not true. A FULLY ported CFI intake will handily outperform a stock TPI, and the reason why it will is that it can flow as well or better than a stock TPI while also having shorter runners that don't kill 4000+ RPM power.

 

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/memb...901-134167.jpg

 

http://www.oldcarmemories.com/content/view/132/1/ read it !!

 

as for mid 13s, that can be expected with a 270-300HP engine depending on the gearing, but once again the intake was not the only mod in that car

L98s got aluminum heads and roller cams in late 86, which made 240HP
the 88+ cars made 245HP, not due to any engine changes but because they do not have precats

you need to clairify if you mean catalytic converter or torque converter, cats definitely do have a meaningful effect on HP, and by changing the torque converter to a higher/lower stall you effectively change the way the car puts power to the ground, same as changing the final drive would

"Bottom line: You can absolutely get ~250 hp from a CFI with porting and tuning alone."

which is entirely ********, the L83s have a garbage cam low 9.0 compression due to enormous 76cc heads, 1.5 roller rockers (which are closer to 1.4 due to wear) and restrictive exhaust, and a tune is also not a intake only mod

the absolute BEST TBI cars, have a Volumetric efficiency rate of around 93%, older systems like the L83 are closer to 75-78%, with that cam, and rocker arm ratio, it is mechanically impossible for a L83 to make 250HP with ANY manifold, at best a L83 with a theoretically perfect manifold and a VE quotient of 82% it would make 242HP
http://www.gtisoft.com/upload/FEV_V8-Breathing.pdf

"The problem with the general perception of "ported CFI intakes" (and likely your perception) is that (and this is important) 99.9% of all people who port their CFI intakes only port match the thing"

sure, thats probably true, not disagreeing with that

"Soooo...you want him to switch to TPI (that is what you recommended in post #6 & 10)"

false, in post 6 i explicitly stated that he would be better off converting to a aftermarket intake manifold and large bore 454 TBI, converting to a single multi-barrel TBI would be the most cost effective solution that would result in very good gains

in post 10, i stated that TPI was superior to CFI, which it is, not that i was reccomending him to convert to TPI, converting a CFI car to TPI is far too much time, effort, and money to be worthwhile

"Converting to an LT1 intake typically costs ~$300 to get the work done to convert the intake...after you supply the intake in the first place."

looks like the price of drill bits has increased by over 2000%, and LT1 intake manifolds are all of the place in junkyards, you can find them most commonly in 93-96 B and D body cars, which share the same manifold as the F-Body and corvette


"YOU did exactly that, by replacing your entire intake with an LT1 intake and your motor is not a "TPI" anymore now anyway!"

Tuned Port is really nothing more than a marketing moniker, but the LT1 intake is essentially the same type of batch fire MPFI, just without excessively long runners

 

same can be said with a lot of "ported TPIs" out there. It takes a lot more material removal to make a difference than most would think. The CFI requires more so to speak.

 

Exactly. That's what I was saying. He was far beyond your "show me a 245hp..." Yeah, he had more than ported intake; he had a home made dual exhaust. I'm sorry that I don't have a ported only, CFI, '84 'Vette in my portfolio of experience. I have something very close, however, and as you pointed out, it's making well over 250 horse.



I said TQ converter.



It's not BS because it can be done. Your list of parts (which are mostly the same on an '85 TPI, right? What compression does an '85 have? What rocker arms?) doesn't change that fact.



Obviously, some of yoru "facts" are wrong. B/c you just cited a CFI car above as making "270-300hp. And what is your DEAL, with the f'n rocker arms anyway. Geezus.



Directly from post #6 for the memory impared...^There ya go. I don't know if you realize this or not, but when you say "You should change to this or that, but it still won't be as good as X, Y or Z..." You're basically endorsing swap to any/all of the above. You're basically saying that any of those solutions would be better. When you follow that post up with another post saying that "TPI is far better than any crossfire intake, and even a ported crossfire intake...TPI cars are far easier to work on, cheaper to upgrade, more reliable, and produce better results and performance
^It really comes across as you endorsing a swap to TPI. Sorry, but it does. That's how people will perceive your posts, so maybe you should go edit them to say something like "I am in love with TPI, although I swapped to an LT1 intake. I don't endorse swapping to TPI...I just wanted to take a moment to gush over the TPI intake system". Something like that might help us from getting confused, and think that you're suggesting a swap to TPI.




O.K....if your endorsement of TPI in that post wasn't an argument to convert to TPI...then WTF was the point of the post?? If you weren't advocating a swap to TPI (and is sure LOOKS like you were) and you were just pontificating about the virtues of TPI, then you might as well "go off" about how superior the LS7 intake is then.


Takes more than a drill bit, pard. Where do you put the distributor? I see in your pic above, there is a distributor. LT1 intake doesn't have any hole or provision for that....so how'd that get there?? Still have plumbing issues too.




That's right. But it's not a Tuned port. It's an LT1. You said "TPI" many times in posts 6 and 10, advocating "TPI". You also cited "245 hp" several times. What motor makes 245 hp? A L98 (TPI)? An L98 converted to a LT1/short runner intake? Or an LT1 engine? Answer, The L98 TPI. So I think anyone reading this thread would assume that you're talking about this:

 

85 is mostly the same except for cam, which makes the most difference, and depending on the date its either 9 or 9.5 compression



a CFI car with mods other than the intake


now youre just being a **** and going on an irrelevant rant over your own dislike of TPI




i was simply making a statement



you have to make a hole for the distributor, for the most part the whole manifold can be converted with a distributor for under $45



a stock late TPI makes 245HP, a stock late TPI with a LT1 converted intake makes 290~ HP

and using a LT1 intake does not change it from being TPI, in function its still a TPI, and LT1 to begin with is not a different form of runner system and was the same thing except for shorter runners

LT1 is simply a name, but the induction system works the same as TPI and in function it is a type of TPI, same as a superram is still TPI

 

Really.

Now we're calling names? Want me to play too? B/c I have a few choice words to describe you, if you'd like to hear them.

You'll have to quote where I said that I dislike TPI, so that I can correct it. I don't believe I said that I dislike it, and I shouldn't have b/c that wouldn't be true. I like all Chevy/Corvette engines, each for different reasons. You should really re-read what you quoted there, b/c what I was REALLY talking about in that quote, what how what YOU said, comes off as an endorsement of switching to TPI (the thing in the picture that I posted). In that quote, I in no way, intended to disparage TPI, and I do not think that I did. Nice try at twisting that one around, though. The more that I think about it, the more I think you're calling me names, b/c you don't like being called out about your own ridiculous posts and claims.




By whom? I and I'd say the majority don't know how to locate and create a hole, then create a flange for the distributor to seat on, then a boss for the retaining bolt. I'd guess you'd need some welding equipment, and a milling machine. Not something too many folks have in their garage. I know that there is a guy on here that does that work for ~$300.00 and that is where my LT1 intake is going when I do a LT1 conversion intake in my car.




Using an LT1 intake ABSOLUTELY changes it from being a TPI. The pic that I posted above...that IS "TPI". What you have on your motor is aboslutely NOT "TPI". In fact, you're proving that very point b/c you keep refering to it as an LT1 intake! Why do you keep calling it an LT1 intake if it's really a TPI intake?



Negative. You don't even know what "TPI" is then. TPI stands for "Tuned Port Injection" (I suspect you know that) and the "Tuned" is in reference to the resonant tuning effect created by the runner length to capitalize on the 3rd harmonic frequency, which occurs at around 3200 RPM -the Tq peak. The LT1 completely circumvents that phenomena by using runners so short, the stock engine can/will never hit it's resonant frecency (which is something like 9000 RPM). Thus, the completely flat tq curve for and LT1, vs. the very peaky one for the L98 TPI. For you to claim that they're the "same thing" is absurd. Cars with the intake that I posted pictures of, say TPI or "Tuned Port Injection" on the engine and on the car -a marketing slogan, you say, but it is b/c there is a deliberately tuned frequency with that intake. They don't call LT1 cars TPI on the intake OR on the car, because the LT1 intake is not tuned! (For the engine's operating range).



Negative. Not at all, not even close. Read above. Read it a few times if you have to.

 

I believe that blueprint base engine will need more manifold than a ported CF. So that means you will need to rethink your induction system. Options exist. Slippery slope you know.

Port fuel or TBI? It gets a little complicated...

And it will require an aftermarket ECU. Consider EBLFLASH with a HAM board.

ps. TPI is not a good choice for that base engine...IMO...That cam revs to 6000. May even have a 112 LSA...

 

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...-believer.html

 

Now I'm a little scared. I thought putting CFI on top of the blueprint 355 /375 would only lessen how strong the engine would run ie: instead of 375hp Mabey 300 +- But now I see the crossfire might make it run lean enough to damage the engine .Can anyone tell me what peramiters I should be looking out for. Thanks

 

Would not run lean just from the ported CF manifold.

A/F is determined by the tune aka .bin. check this out dynamicefi.com

you are looking at tuning for sure with that engine. Also see DIY Prom at thirdgen.org and look at stickies as to what you are in for!

i did just what you did 10 years ago to my 84 CF.

 

CFI is no different than any other intake with regard to "running lean". You're putting the intake (and it's ECM tune) onto an engine that has much great air (and fuel) requirements at higher RPM. Whether it be a CFI system, TPI, LT1...what ever, if you don't change the fueling, it will run lean. Just like with any engine mod, you need to feed it what it wants. More fuel. As I said earlier, you can accomplish that quick and easy with bigger injectors and more fuel pressure. If you fully port your intake, get the right injectors and a vacuum referenced fuel pressure regulator in there, it'll probably run O.K.....maybe a little rich and "soft" down low w/o tuning the ECM, but it should work fine...especially with the criteria that you mentioned.

I was running a similar cam, in a 400, and getting ~300 hp and w/o tuning the ECM, I was able to get 24 mpg hwy, and stock like idle. All around a pretty decent result, IMO. You won't do quite as well b/c you're running smaller displacement, but I think you can make it work fine, and come out over 300 horse.

 

after looking into the blueprint more closely I see why so inexpensive ."Seasoned"(used) block and the heads I believe are procomps ? which I think I should look into a bit more.
going back to the GM 350/290 it just seems a little underwhelming at 8:1 comp. Does anyone think with opened up intake and larger injectors I could get this one close ...very close to its potential. I wish I could rebuild my own block but I have two cracks in it.

 

I'd try to find a different crate motor with higher compression. Or a take-out (junk yard motor). To me, that 8.1 compression is too low. You could probably achieve your goal, but it would be harder with that long block. That 290 hp rating has got to be a "gross" rating. So you put it in ANY car and it's going to lose 50 of those hp just from accessories, and everything else.

I guess I would be more inclined to find something like THIS but with more cam, or put a cam into it.

 

you begin with more irrelevant bullsh|t that has nothing to do with the argument and deny facts once again, something you seem to do repeatedly. you do not need to either weld mill a LT1 intake to convert it, and your last argument about the definition of TPI even contradicts itself and at best would count as a partial definition of what GM defined TPI as "long runner, batch fire injected, air induction system" of which the LT1 still is, not as long runners as a TPI and in your own post you even say that resonance is still present in the LT1 system

 

Dumb as a box of rocks. I think you've shown us all what you're made of here pretty well. Couple corrections for you though (though I doubt any of it will "take")...

So then answer the question that I asked above! "how to locate and create a hole, then create a flange for the distributor to seat on, then a boss for the retaining bolt"
The LT1 intake has no provisions for a distributor.


Yikes. I think that you're making a feeble attempt to save face at this point. There was absolutely nothing contradictory about what I said. You may want to attempt to have at least some reading comprehension. What I ACTUALLY said was:
"The LT1 completely circumvents that phenomena by using runners so short, the stock engine can/will never hit it's resonant frequency (which is something like 9000 RPM).""
GM took the "tuned" feature out of the intake for the LT1, as it's used in a motor that peaks at 5200 RPM. The "tuned" feature is not there. Therefore, it can't very well be a TUNED port injection, can it?

You never asnwered my questions; Why do you keep calling your LT1 intake an LT1, when you're claiming it's really A TPI? Where did I state that I dislike TPI? And again, how does one create a provision for a distributor in an LT1 intake?

I'm waiting....

 

Tom400cfi thanks for the suggestion but I think that engine has centerbolt heads I don't think my manifold will blot to those. I thought it would be fairly easy to find an engine for less than $3000. that was noticeably stronger(faster) than the orig.
I guess ill keep searching, better hurry spring time is coming and I wont let it sit in the garage...Keep u posted...

 

Just for the record...late '86 Conv & Coupes got Aluminum Heads, Roller Cam came in '87. Also, The "flange" for the Distributor also needs to be milled at an angle if I remember correctly....and as was mentioned, a Remote Thermostat Housing is needed.
Your local Machine/Speed Shops should be able to help you out with getting a long or short block together,