WW7

I was having a problem with my ignition cylinder sticking and not going into the start position to turn the engine over...Today I had a new ignition cylinder lock installed and its working correctly again, but I believe I also have a second problem that's happening..About once every 3 turns of the key its still failing to engage the starter , sometimes just engaging it enough to make the pinion gear jump out and tap the flexplate, other times nothing at all, then all of a sudden it will work correctly and start the car as it should ...Here's what I checked out so far...I read in the service manual that the starter needs at least 7 to 8 volts going through the ignition wire to the starter, for the starter to engage properly......I hooked up a digital meter with one end on the ignition wire and the other to a ground, when I turned the ignition switch to start, sometimes I would get 12 volts, and other times I would get 3 to 4 volts , or sometimes nothing at all...Does this indicate that I may have a bad ignition switch ( the one attached to the bottom of the steering column) or maybe a bad wire between the ignition switch and the starter..
I probably know less then anyone on this forum about electical, so help is very appreciated....Please give your opinions....Thanks WW

hooked073

I personally like to check the voltage directly at the starter. Check to see it you have 12 volts or there about at the s term (the small term) on the starter when you have the key turned to crank

joe paco

yes. but if you have only a few v at the ignition switch that eliminates the solenoid, right? not sure where you are checking, ww7. 3-4 volts is high resistance, I guess, like loose connection.

hooked073

Im not sure where he was testing at that is why I sugested going right to the starter

WW7

Sorry for not being clearer..... Im pulling the ignition start wire ( small wire) off of the solenoid, having someone turn the key to start, and checking the voltage that is going through the ignition start wire to the solenoid ...The voltage is all over the place , one time 12, one time 4, sometimes 0...Im checking with a multi meter, putting the positive probe on the ignition wire and grounding the negitive probe....I hope this is how you check, Im real weak when it comes to electical.....WW

joe paco

if you are checking the purple wire that is the right one. doesn't have to be disconnected, unless you don't want it engaging while checking, which makes sense.

I would have the helper hold the key to start when it reads nothing or low volts, and wiggle the shifter if auto, or move the clutch pedal, to see the reaction on your meter. looking for a wire loose on the safety switch, defective switch, whatever. "clues."

WW7

Im just looking through my Service Manual now trying to figure something out. So the neutral safety switch is part of the circuit that goes to the ignition switch?? I read that the block behind the battery are also wires for the ignition..Anything else you can think of to check...Thanks..WW

hooked073

with your other problem with the key being difficult to turn. It may be possible that your ignition switch itself is bad. Myself before cheasing down the wire all the way thru the system I would at min pull the switch and run an ohm meter from the 12 volts in to the s term out at the switch.

joe paco

the route is battery to ignition switch, to start relay, to neutral switch, to starter solenoid, to starter.

if you have the electrical book it is 8-30 or so. generally, the solenoid will have battery voltage or not, and that is how the book sees it. the variance of voltage suggests a wire is pinched -purple, or whichever. the test per the fsm would be a "no" for 12v, since it varies all over. Not sure if the relay can do that, but I assume so. the auto shifter lineage can rub the purple or the yellow/blk and cause short to ground, per a service bulletin for the 90-91. some wires routed wrong at assembly.

there are real experts on here, ww, but I ain't one tov'em..

WVZR-1

Wayne - Did you get my email! Didn't mean to change subject but saw you "on-line"!

WW7

Hi Dave,
I just read it....I did have this problem intermittently before the ignition cylinder was replaced today, I just thought it was part of the same problem...It was doing this at the dealership and the guy checked the connections before I left, but I haven't had a chance to check much today myself..Im going to check the voltage of the purple wire to the solenoid again tomorrow with another volt meter to make sure what I saw was right...I don't trust my meter...Like I said at the begining of this thread, one time I get nothing when I turn the key, next time the starter wil move the gear out to hit the flexplate, then the next time I turn the key it will start perfect.......WW

hooked073

I have seen broken and weak contacts in the ignition switch do excautly what you are talking about. And I am one who like to start at the scource also and that is the switch. I have also seen burnt connections at the ignition switch do the same

WW7

Joe, You may not be an expert , but you have good solid information and you know a hell of a lot more then me.......Thanks....WW

WW7

Thanks for your help.... I will check all the connections tomorrow. If I don't find anything loose or broken , I guess my next step is to start at the ignition switch and work my way down the list of components...Is this correct??..Also if Im going to check the starter enable relay, it might be wise just to bypass it , since I already have vats eliminated in my tune...WW

WVZR-1

Do as I mentioned in the email for a starting spot. There's no need in just starting to bypass things that are likely still functioning.

WW7

Thanks Dave ,
So ignore the part of the email I just sent you, saying Im going to bypass the Start Enable Relay....I'll hold off on doing that for now.......WW

Cliff Harris

I would start with checking the battery cables (both cables, both ends) for clean solid connections. I had a battery leak acid into the cable and eat up the copper wire inside. It wasn't visible, but I got very low voltage at the starter solenoid.

Note that it's best to check voltages with things still connected. If there is no load then the voltage will be the same as the source (no voltage drop in the wiring).

joe paco

I think the meter would explain the wide variance -maybe it was made in Panama! ja ja ja-_ but, the gear does not engage every time, meaning low current OR faulty solenoid or bad ground on starter to block.
as Cliff said, best to check voltage with solenoid connected to purple wire. the "but" here is that the purple wires shows no voltage sometimes. if everything else works, we know there is voltage. if you hook up the solenoid, you can turn on lights and watch for current draw.
it is still possible that the meter shows wrong, AND the solenoid is also bad connection or faulty. the voltage in the purple wire and the voltage in the solenoid are from different circuits.

I am always suspicious of my meter or test light so be sure the ground is on engine rather than starter or some other component. GM had an issue with paint on the block under the starter causing bad ground.

just some thoughts.

joe

WW7

Well , it's not a bad meter... I just bought a new meter and hooked it up, red to ignition wire , black to neg battery cable.. I turned the key to start 10 times, 3 times the meter read 12.10 , the other 7 times the meter stayed at zero... Im taking the car to a friends shop on thursday , he's good at electrical issues, I have already picked up a new AC Delco ignition switch just in case...wish me luck........WW

hooked073

I just though of something. was this happing before you installed the new switch?? If it was not did the cam gear slide out some when you pulled the switch. It is possible that it did and needs retimed with the rack for the acuatpr for the ignition switch. If it is one tooth off sometimes the rack will move far enough to ingauge the switch and sometimes it will not. one way to check this turn the key to acc and see if infact it will go to acc. Then put the key to run and then to start does it feel like you have the normal travel. These are just thoughts that I know can be issuses hope this or anything else helps.