aklim

Could a different plug do the same thing?

ToniJ1960

Possibly Im sure, I had that car for 26 years and used few different types. None seemed to make any difference other than those, but I didnt try v type or halo plugs or whatever so its quite possible theres other types that could make a change in that 2.3

aklim

I had a 2.3 and I never found any performance difference at the track.

whalepirot

Oft, I find 'heresy' to be the truth, however, with no profit motive.

Some might recall the paper authored by a Pontiac fuels engineer who explained how detergent gasoline, three tankfuls, cleaned the very dirty injectors, etc. in a Firebird engine; as well or better than any additives?

(Just imagine how much faster it would have been with a Vortex Tornado!)

ToniJ1960

Was it a Pinto

aklim

I don't know about cleaning injectors since I have had dirty injectors on cars that have nothing but good gasoline in it. Those are stations that have high turnover of fuel so it is fresh and not some Mom & Pop shop with last decade's gas. Send the injectors out for testing and they aways come back with a difference. And yes, I run them on a bench at the tech college to test it and do see that the cleaning facility has about the same volume as I got.

aklim

89 Merkur Xr4Ti. 2.3 turbo which I changed to a T3/T4, ported heads, rebuilt block, converted ECM to an 88 Turbo Coupe and intercooler with the Vane Air system changed to Mass air.

Cliff Harris

That type of test is expensive and it's impossible to justify the expense when it would be impossible to recoup the cost by the limited audience who would see the test results and be influenced to buy the product.

PcolaPaul

The "3000 mile" oil changes are something the Oil change places dreamed up and marketed to make money. I don't know of a single manufacturer that recommends a 3K interval.

aDigitalPhantom

What year car are we talking about?


Copy and paste from my 93 pdf owners manual
In some conditions GM does recommend a change at 3000 miles.

This is from the owner manual for a 2011 Camaro (don't know why I have this )

meyerweb

i believe all the cars my family had in the 60s called for 3 month / 3,000 mile oil change intervals. Older cars probably did, too. I think that's where it originated, but oil change places certainly ignored the improvements in engines and oils since then.

Tom400CFI

Updated w/new pic.

Purple92

As far as engine oil additives go - I generally believe that the engineers at Mobil Oil, Valvoline, Castrol and so on know more than I do about lubrication, and what is needed, so I personally use the stuff as is.

I have had a couple of engines professionally built and run on an engine dyno, and my engine guy believes in using racing oils with higher ZDP for break in ESPECIALLY when using a non-roller camshafts. He also believes in avoiding synthetic oils for the first couple of hours after a "new" engine is put in use. So - since I'm paying for his skill in screwing together an engine - I will take his advice on break in....

As far as fuel system additives - I have personally had the pleasure of taking apart a number of small engine carbs - after their owners have let gas sit in the system for a year or so (typically on snowblowers). I can tell you for certain - that I've seen some gummed up - ugly float bowls, partially or completely blocked main jets, and needle and seats that don't want to fully close. So I DO use fuel stabilizer (either Sta-Bil or Star Tron) when I won't be using the fuel up within several months. I will also say that haven't seen the crudded up carb issues with engines that were stored with fuel stabilizer. Is that absolute proof - NO - is it good enough for me to spend $20/year on fuel stabilizer - YES !!!

One other story - I live in NJ, and after using my old McCullough Chainsaw to clean up a fair amount of "Sandy" damage about 5 years ago - I decided to buy myself a new chainsaw. I went to a local Stihl dealer and bought a new Stihl saw. Now the Stihl dealers typically assemble and test run your new saw for you - so I was back in the service area where they put the saw together - started it up, and and ran it for me. In the back of the shop was a rack with at least 50 chainsaws that were in for service (and as it was a Stihl dealer - almost all were Stihl saws). I asked the mechanic if I was making a horrible mistake - as he was getting ready to start the saw - pointing to the rack of orange saws in for repair. He smiled and said that 90% of those saws won't start due to gummed up carbs. The guy told me - that the 2 cycle diaphragm carbs - they are extremely sensitive to "old fuel" and that I should run stabilizer in ALL fuel that goes into the saw - and that even with Stabilizer - "if you're not going to run the saw for 30 days - drain the fuel out, and run it till it dies from lack of fuel." This mechanic also strongly recommended using 93 octane Premium" for the fuel for making the 2 cycle fuel mix. Since I go through less than a gallon of 2 cycle gas a year - I think I can afford to spring for the fuel stabilizer when I mix up a batch.

Again - I completely understand that this is anecdotal evidence - but here is a guy who works on small engines as a full time job - I tend to believe he gets to see a lot more than most of us do - and if he says that fuel systems gumming up from old gas is a major reason why small 2 stroke engines fail to start - I'll take his word for it....

Tom400CFI

Yep...I hear you. I would do the same if I were in your shoes.

I'm "that guy" though; I run a fleet maintenance shop and have been doing that for over 20 years. We work on everything from diesel/heavy equipment, to pick-ups, to chain saws, mowers etc.

This thread isn't attempting to address "small engines"; it's about cars but I agree with you that small engines are more affected by gasoline evaporating from the carb and leaving residue. I also agree with your small engine technician; run it out of gas when you're done with it and store it empty/dry.


.

Purple92

OK - Didn't realize what you did in day to day life - you always seemed to know what you were talking about - now we have a bit more of an understanding about why !!!!

The reason for my paragraph about small engines is that obviously - the gasoline in a tank doesn't care what size the tank is - or what it's bolted to - so the degradation process will be fundamentally the same. Sure gas will degrade slower in the well sealed tank on a car as opposed to the vented tank and vented carb of a small engine - but if old gas gums up a small engine - it certainly can gum up a car's fuel system given enough time... Which would be why I typically fill the tank and run stabilizer in cars that won't be used for the winter months....

Tom400CFI

I hear your logic there...but consider this; I believe that it is the exposure of gasoline to air that causes the issue -the biggest (in small engines) is evaporation. Most of a car's fuel system is sealed, with no exposure to air (EFI cars, I'm talking here). You leave the tank FULL, for storage...no air in the tank either (not much anyway) and the tank isn't vented to atmosphere.

A small engine's carb is vented to atmosphere, the gas evaporates in weeks and leaves residue/contamination which clogs orifices.

Left long enough, a cars fuel system can have trouble; the '89 I bought this past spring had been sitting for over 5 years (tank was left at about 1/4, too). Gas reeked, injectors were clogged. So it does happen. But nothing like what you see on small equipment.

Joe C

. FWIW, I recently bought a portable generator, and the (briggs and straton) user's manual states to store it with a full tank of gas, and a fuel stabilizer. not that i do anything that's really different, but i stored the generator with a stabilized, 87 octane,non-ethanol gas. we have one gas station in the area that has a single, non-ethanol, 87 octane, gas pump. i can't say there's any advantage using or storing a small engine with non-E gas, but i figure it can't hurt either. i do see a few biker guys filling their tanks with this stuff.

back to the subject topic. I've never used an additive in my 85, or any other car I've owned. pretty much just follow the owners manual, but i tend to use the narrowest viscosity range as recommended. my theory is, and i have nothing to really back it up, but my theory is there are less viscosity index additives in 10W30 than 5W30. additives don't lubricate - they only break down with time and temperature. probably doesn't amount to a hill of beans with 3K oil changes though - just something i do.

ctmccloskey

The Formulation of STP was taken/stolen from the Germans after WW2. It was designed to protect their aircraft engines from oil loss. There are numerous stories about German pilots landing their aircraft with no oil in the crankcase and walking away. I use a Water/Methanol injection system on my car because of the compression I chose to use. It too was a German idea used in WW2 to enable their aircraft to have a short term boost in power that gave them a slight edge at times. Smart ideas, and they work.

I USE ADDITIVES.

I am an Engineer and I know how to verify a product as well, I do so with an open mind as I don't know all the tricks. I don't tell people that they should or should not run additives. I also do not put them down because they feel differently than I do. A good product should be able to stand on it own merits. The additives I have use have been used for many years and have worked for me in my applications or I would not waste the money to buy them.

I am a big believer in products that have proven that they work in my world. I use BG44K in my fuel systems every few thousand miles. I use Justice Brothers products as they make an oil additive that can actually reverse damage to bearings and other components in your engine with it's use. I personally witnessed the JB Oil Treatment while it was cleaning the surface of a bearing that had been damaged. I watched the salesman load the bearings up to several times the standard load and saw the regular oil lock up the bearing because it was unable to handle the load. Call your local Justice Brothers Rep and have them demonstrate to you how it really does work. I called in a room full of Fellow Engineers, including several with degrees from MIT and they all witnessed the demonstration of the Oil Treatment that JB makes. Today, most of them use it regularly after watching in real life as it cleaned up a damaged bearing surface. My neighbor had lawnmower that was smoking like crazy, I added the right amount for his engine and the smoking has virtually come to a stop. I guess they must all be a bunch of morons for using this "snake oil"....

The motor oil that I use on my C3 427 are made by Joe Gibbs Racing and have enough zinc to make my engine happy. I choose an oil weight based on the clearances inside my engines bearings, not based on what the guy at Advanced Auto told you to use.

There have been products manufactured over the years that were totally worthless (Quaker State RACING Oil). There are some amazing products out there that seem to be "too good to be true" and sometimes they do exactly what they are intended to do.

Why does VW add an additive when they change our VW's oil? It is a friction reducer additive and a company as big as VW uses it every day, are they wrong in doing this? They are doing it to ensure that the engine wears more slowly and that is a big plus for the customer and the Warranty Department at VW. They use this additive in a new weight range of motor oils because of this engines design. I also know for a fact that the two local VW dealers use BG products every day in their service department. Are they all wrong?

Being skeptical is not a bad thing until it keeps you from moving forward with technology as it progresses. I am not an idiot for using aftermarket products, I use products I trust and they do what I ask of them. I too believe in StaBil, it is good stuff. However if you use STIHL oils they come with StaBil in the concoction.

Again I tell you that if you really want to know if something helps or hurts go visit the GTECH PRO page, there you can buy a tool that will show you if there is any improvement at all. This is one important tool as it gives you Dyno style results from a small device that will load on your computer so you can see what just happened. It gives results almost immediately n the built in touch screen.

Once again I want to wish each and every one of you a Very Merry Christmas and a New Year full of great Corvette experiences! With or without additives....

Tom400CFI

Just updated today, 12/17/18, with a 233,300 mile specimen.


FYI, I tried BG 44K in a car I had....I immediately lost fuel mileage.
I DO use BG product at work in our diesel fuel; we buy summer blend diesel in the winter, then treat it so that it doesn't gel. The total cost of the summer + BG is less then the winter blend, and should produce more BTU's (better efficiency/gallon) than winter blend. I can't prove that we get more efficiency, but I can prove that we spend less/gallon total, and the fuel doesn't gel.

So look...I'm not harshing on all additives in all situations; there are additives that do work...and there is a place for them as part of diagnosis and repair. Did you see what I just said there?

I'm against arbitrarily pouring potions in their various orifices...then recommending those product because "they've had no issues". I've shown in this thread quite clearly, that if you have a properly maintained car, all these "problems" (carbon build up, plugged injectors, oil issues...whatever) are not only kept at bay, but even reduced or eliminated by basic maintenance with a decent product. My point here is mostly for the unwitting; the people who don't know...the folks who come here looking for is that decent maintenance advice...they don't know that changing your oil and running pump gas and good coolant is better than enough. They don't know that and this thread shows them that it is better than good enough.
^That is who comes on these forums looking for advice. Rather than arbitrarily telling people to Pour xxx into their orifices...why don't we educate these folks (and ourselves) as to what's happening with basic maintenance -and then how necessary are any additives? BTW, your VW dealer is marking up and making $$$ on the additives that they add to their oil change.

Tom400CFI

Are you implying that I said this? If I did, please quote where I did that so that I can correct it. I don't believe that I've said anything even close to that.

That's exactly right. And people on this forum, frequently recommend to the unwitting, to use these products. This thread shows us why that may not be necessary. When you got a 233,300 mile engine with zero carbon build up on the intake valves....why does that person need to dump "seafoam" (or fill in the blank) down there TB-hole to fix something? They don't.