Stranded - Just happened
Intermediate
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 41
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2 things:
The security light is not associated with VATS in a C4 Corvette. The security light only indicates status of the entry alarm system. Security light has nothing to do with VATS. VATS and the alarm system are separate. Nothing in common.
Even if the VATS key pellet has been bypassed, the starter enable relay still has to make contact or it won't crank. The relay is a big deal in every early VATS GM car. They go bad, and it won't crank.
Check the ECM for codes. If there is a 46, this is set by a VATS problem. If there is no 46, replace the relay. It is behind the DIC or the radio. I don't remember which. On the RH side of the cavity, on a bracket, look for 2 large gauge yellow wires, and 2 green wires. Those are the colors for the relay.
Last edited by DaveP85C4; May 31, 2016 at 04:19 AM.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2016
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Dave, thanks for your input but it's contrary to what I have seen myself and read. Yes I understand the bypass isn't truly a bypass, I think only sure way is to pull the chip and erase VATS.
No code on the ECM
No code on the ECM
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2008
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From: Lansing MI
Maybe someone will post a schematic.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2003
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There's also a "NO CRANK" in drive-ability. Dave's suggested "Starter Enable Relay" is the first to check I'd think. '88 was the first year for the compact starter and it might not be odd to have issues in the starter proper with contacts that can be serviced. Heat soak on a 'denso yes but not as likely as the older Remy.
Last edited by WVZR-1; May 31, 2016 at 10:21 AM.
Intermediate
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 41
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Note in my post I described the wire colors into the relay, and the location of the relay. You think I pulled that out of my azz? No. I got it from the FSM's I bought for a car I sold 18 years ago. I never had trouble with the VATS in my 88 and it was functional, I remember "testing it" because I was curious if it worked or not. It did.
I did look at the schematics for both systems to refresh my recollection prior to posting.
I know that isn't good enough for you guys. Neither is experience with 100's of C4 Corvettes. Nor having owned an 88, which is the subject car. I know you're OK with peeps posting "basics", even if it's wrong or inaccurate, but I don't do that. You can believe it works the way you think it works and never fix your car, nor will anybody else if you provide incorrect, or inaccurate information. But I really don't care.
The security light has nothing to do with the VATS system.
I did look at the schematics for both systems to refresh my recollection prior to posting.
I know that isn't good enough for you guys. Neither is experience with 100's of C4 Corvettes. Nor having owned an 88, which is the subject car. I know you're OK with peeps posting "basics", even if it's wrong or inaccurate, but I don't do that. You can believe it works the way you think it works and never fix your car, nor will anybody else if you provide incorrect, or inaccurate information. But I really don't care.
The security light has nothing to do with the VATS system.
Last edited by DaveP85C4; May 31, 2016 at 10:46 AM.
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 17,982
Likes: 1,074
From: Lansing MI
I did look at the schematics for both systems to refresh my recollection prior to posting. .
I know that isn't good enough for you guys. Neither is experience with 100's of C4 Corvettes. Nor having owned an 88, which is the subject car. I know you're OK with peeps posting "basics", even if it's wrong or inaccurate, but I don't do that. You can believe it works the way you think it works and never fix your car. I really don't care.
The security light has nothing to do with the VATS system.
I know that isn't good enough for you guys. Neither is experience with 100's of C4 Corvettes. Nor having owned an 88, which is the subject car. I know you're OK with peeps posting "basics", even if it's wrong or inaccurate, but I don't do that. You can believe it works the way you think it works and never fix your car. I really don't care.
The security light has nothing to do with the VATS system.
Intermediate
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 41
Likes: 13
Now.
Technically, you DON'T have a VATS issue, because you don't have a Code 46.
The VATS module has 2 outputs: The "Fuel Enable" output to the ECM to allow fuel injectors to function. AND it grounds the Starter Enable relay coil. The other side of the relay coil is energized in START. So to close the relay, the VATS module must be grounding the relay. It probably is, because you don't have a Code 46. The contacts in the relay pass the current from the key switch through them to the clutch or Neutral switch and on to the starter. The full solenoid current passes through the relay, so it is reasonable to expect it to have a service life. The relay contacts are switching the current every time you crank the engine.
Replace the Starter Enable Relay. This is a very common failure in F-Cars, and the C5. One peep in this thread mentioned he had trouble with the relay as well.
Last edited by DaveP85C4; May 31, 2016 at 10:59 AM.
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 17,982
Likes: 1,074
From: Lansing MI
I did look at the schematics for both systems to refresh my recollection prior to posting.
I know that isn't good enough for you guys. Neither is experience with 100's of C4 Corvettes. Nor having owned an 88, which is the subject car. I know you're OK with peeps posting "basics", even if it's wrong or inaccurate, but I don't do that. You can believe it works the way you think it works and never fix your car, nor will anybody else if you provide incorrect, or inaccurate information. But I really don't care.
.
I know that isn't good enough for you guys. Neither is experience with 100's of C4 Corvettes. Nor having owned an 88, which is the subject car. I know you're OK with peeps posting "basics", even if it's wrong or inaccurate, but I don't do that. You can believe it works the way you think it works and never fix your car, nor will anybody else if you provide incorrect, or inaccurate information. But I really don't care.
.
Maybe its no paradox at all. Maybe your just trying to fluffer up your ego by using the forum to prove (to yourself) that you possess some sort of technical superiority over those without the same resources.
Yes ... that makes perfect sense.
We do agree on something tho (as evidenced by your quoted post above), you really don't care....
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Intermediate
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 41
Likes: 13
There's a strange paradox at work here. On one hand your adamant about posting the correct details about the system in question, and you have admitted you have the correct resource materials, but then you wont actually post the schematic or a flow chart or anything else that would actually be helpful....
B: I am adamant about posting the correct details, because of only one reason. When I respond to a post, my primary reason for doing so is to re-learn it myself. I conduct the research, do the Google, get out the FSM, and by doing so I relearn or refresh my understanding of a particular system that I may not have had my hands on for decades.
In this thread, when I saw the OP's "the security light goes out so the VATS is OK" I thought "that's true in a VATS II System, but the C4 is not VATS II". I know that in the 88 (and all C4's) the security light indicates entry alarm status. (Few peeps seem to understand what it actually means though). I didn't recall an association of VATS with the Security light. So I got out the FSM's, and read the schematics for BOTH systems. There is nothing in common with the two systems.
Again: I do this for my OWN education. If someone else learns something too, or even fixes their car, great. But that is not my primary goal.
Even this post furthered my personal education. If you learned something too, great.
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 17,982
Likes: 1,074
From: Lansing MI
A: It is illegal, and against most Forums' Terms of Use Agreement to post copyrighted material without permission. I will sometimes do it, but I attribute the source.
B: I am adamant about posting the correct details, because of only one reason. When I respond to a post, my primary reason for doing so is to re-learn it myself. I conduct the research, do the Google, get out the FSM, and by doing so I relearn or refresh my understanding of a particular system that I may not have had my hands on for decades.
In this thread, when I saw the OP's "the security light goes out so the VATS is OK" I thought "that's true in a VATS II System, but the C4 is not VATS II". I know that in the 88 (and all C4's) the security light indicates entry alarm status. (Few peeps seem to understand what it actually means though). I didn't recall an association of VATS with the Security light. So I got out the FSM's, and read the schematics for BOTH systems. There is nothing in common with the two systems.
Again: I do this for my OWN education. If someone else learns something too, or even fixes their car, great. But that is not my primary goal.
Even this post furthered my personal education. If you learned something too, great.
B: I am adamant about posting the correct details, because of only one reason. When I respond to a post, my primary reason for doing so is to re-learn it myself. I conduct the research, do the Google, get out the FSM, and by doing so I relearn or refresh my understanding of a particular system that I may not have had my hands on for decades.
In this thread, when I saw the OP's "the security light goes out so the VATS is OK" I thought "that's true in a VATS II System, but the C4 is not VATS II". I know that in the 88 (and all C4's) the security light indicates entry alarm status. (Few peeps seem to understand what it actually means though). I didn't recall an association of VATS with the Security light. So I got out the FSM's, and read the schematics for BOTH systems. There is nothing in common with the two systems.
Again: I do this for my OWN education. If someone else learns something too, or even fixes their car, great. But that is not my primary goal.
Even this post furthered my personal education. If you learned something too, great.
Just keep in mind that you just showed up here and there are folks that have been contributing for many years. It would be a shame if some of those folks took offense to the way you deliver your message and decided to leave. It really would.
Stick around long enough and you will find there are plenty of folks who deserve to actually be abused, and when those times come around I will be with you every step of the way.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 163
Likes: 4
Dave,
Sorry if I pissed you off, certainly did not mean this thread to take a turn like it did.
I will keep the VATS starter relay in mind. Has not happened since.
My experience with VATS and the security light when I was having VATS issues was
when I opened the door the security light lit. Then when I put the key in the ignition and turned to on, if the security light stayed on, the vehicle was NOT going to start. When I turned the ignition to on and the security light went out, it would start.
Light still behaves the same with the VATS bypass but now it always(or at least always since the bypass was installed) goes out when the key is turned.
I am learning these cars are never truly fixed, its just something else marked off the list.
when you pull a cover or look under anything it looks like 10lbs of crap in a 5lb bag, truly amazing ;-)
Sorry if I pissed you off, certainly did not mean this thread to take a turn like it did.
I will keep the VATS starter relay in mind. Has not happened since.
My experience with VATS and the security light when I was having VATS issues was
when I opened the door the security light lit. Then when I put the key in the ignition and turned to on, if the security light stayed on, the vehicle was NOT going to start. When I turned the ignition to on and the security light went out, it would start.
Light still behaves the same with the VATS bypass but now it always(or at least always since the bypass was installed) goes out when the key is turned.
I am learning these cars are never truly fixed, its just something else marked off the list.
when you pull a cover or look under anything it looks like 10lbs of crap in a 5lb bag, truly amazing ;-)
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2,223
Likes: 556
From: Tallahassee fl
A: It is illegal, and against most Forums' Terms of Use Agreement to post copyrighted material without permission. I will sometimes do it, but I attribute the source.
B: I am adamant about posting the correct details, because of only one reason. When I respond to a post, my primary reason for doing so is to re-learn it myself. I conduct the research, do the Google, get out the FSM, and by doing so I relearn or refresh my understanding of a particular system that I may not have had my hands on for decades.
In this thread, when I saw the OP's "the security light goes out so the VATS is OK" I thought "that's true in a VATS II System, but the C4 is not VATS II". I know that in the 88 (and all C4's) the security light indicates entry alarm status. (Few peeps seem to understand what it actually means though). I didn't recall an association of VATS with the Security light. So I got out the FSM's, and read the schematics for BOTH systems. There is nothing in common with the two systems.
Again: I do this for my OWN education. If someone else learns something too, or even fixes their car, great. But that is not my primary goal.
Even this post furthered my personal education. If you learned something too, great.
B: I am adamant about posting the correct details, because of only one reason. When I respond to a post, my primary reason for doing so is to re-learn it myself. I conduct the research, do the Google, get out the FSM, and by doing so I relearn or refresh my understanding of a particular system that I may not have had my hands on for decades.
In this thread, when I saw the OP's "the security light goes out so the VATS is OK" I thought "that's true in a VATS II System, but the C4 is not VATS II". I know that in the 88 (and all C4's) the security light indicates entry alarm status. (Few peeps seem to understand what it actually means though). I didn't recall an association of VATS with the Security light. So I got out the FSM's, and read the schematics for BOTH systems. There is nothing in common with the two systems.
Again: I do this for my OWN education. If someone else learns something too, or even fixes their car, great. But that is not my primary goal.
Even this post furthered my personal education. If you learned something too, great.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,441
Likes: 421
From: Ventura County, CA
St. Jude Donor '05 thru '24
Same symptoms as you, no codes either and after a cool down it would turn over fine
Instructor
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 193
Likes: 19
From: Stevenston, Scotland, GB
Happened to me too..
I fitted a new starter, but also added a length of cable directly to the solenoid then up and over the firewall and across to a starter button which is fitted on the brace above the battery on my '87. This allows me to operate the starter directly from the battery in the event of any problems.
If you look carefully at this old image, you'll see the green and yellow cable running across the firewall and the starter button atop the battery on the brace.
I fitted a new starter, but also added a length of cable directly to the solenoid then up and over the firewall and across to a starter button which is fitted on the brace above the battery on my '87. This allows me to operate the starter directly from the battery in the event of any problems.
If you look carefully at this old image, you'll see the green and yellow cable running across the firewall and the starter button atop the battery on the brace.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2016
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Likes: 4
Think it may have been the batter. It happened again Friday afternoon and then started 30 mins later. Friend had a load tester and it failed abysmally.
Battery was just over 1 yr old so it was replaced Saturday Free of charge. We'll see how it goes. Thanks all for the help !
Battery was just over 1 yr old so it was replaced Saturday Free of charge. We'll see how it goes. Thanks all for the help !
