Octane upgrade
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marvinator (12-30-2017)
12-31-2017, 10:35 AM
#3
Team Owner
Not sure why it isn't able to be reprogrammed but assuming you are right, what difference are you trying to make? If it is to get more power, I doubt it unless your engine has a problem that makes it detonate.
12-31-2017, 01:16 PM
#5
Team Owner
I once tried using regular unleaded (87 octane) in my slightly modded '87 and driving around locally, I didn't see any problems. Under hard acceleration, I did hear some pinging. Out on the freeway at 70 MPH using cruise control, I saw a drop of about 2 MPG.
Your car should run fine using premium unleaded which I think is 92 octane in Oregon? Unless you have some serious mods, including a higher compression ratio, using premium grade gas is all the car needs.
As far as "programming", there is a chip in the ECU that can be replaced with a custom chip. There are places that will do a tune based on the mods you have. You get a chip that simply plugs in.
Your car should run fine using premium unleaded which I think is 92 octane in Oregon? Unless you have some serious mods, including a higher compression ratio, using premium grade gas is all the car needs.
As far as "programming", there is a chip in the ECU that can be replaced with a custom chip. There are places that will do a tune based on the mods you have. You get a chip that simply plugs in.
12-31-2017, 05:22 PM
#6
Team Owner
I once tried using regular unleaded (87 octane) in my slightly modded '87 and driving around locally, I didn't see any problems. Under hard acceleration, I did hear some pinging. Out on the freeway at 70 MPH using cruise control, I saw a drop of about 2 MPG.
As far as "programming", there is a chip in the ECU that can be replaced with a custom chip. There are places that will do a tune based on the mods you have. You get a chip that simply plugs in.
As far as "programming", there is a chip in the ECU that can be replaced with a custom chip. There are places that will do a tune based on the mods you have. You get a chip that simply plugs in.
As a general rule, I wouldn't trust the "Guess a Tune" people. If I were doing it, I'd definitely dial a little back for safety. BTDT with other vehicles and they were more problematic than after getting it set up on a dyno. If they are careful, data logging is more acceptable to me than "Guess a Tune" but I'd still prefer it on rollers where they can make changes that maximize the tune power wise and see what it is doing at any given point. After that, they can road test it and make sure everything is doing good.
Sure, it sucks to tow a car for a few hours to a facility to get a tune but the way I see it, unless you are doing something radical, it only needs to be tuned once and forgotten.
12-31-2017, 06:48 PM
#7
Zen Vet Master Level VII
12-31-2017, 08:03 PM
#8
Team Owner
1. Sucker buys it and gets a placebo effect and shills for them
2. Sucker buys it and it doesn't work, tries a few times and loses interest.
3. Sucker buys it and it doesn't work and he forgets it
They only way to know is to conduct proper laboratory tests which the user cannot so the above goes on and on, reaping new suckers. Ask yourself this. If the product is so great, why wouldn't you, as a manufacturer want to commission a few independent, nationally accredited laboratories to show what they proved in the lab? I know I would use it as advertisement. UNLESS the laboratory test shows that the profitability depends on how gullible the buyer is.
12-31-2017, 08:22 PM
#9
Le Mans Master
..... Premium gas is snake oil ? ... according to my 1987 Corvette owners manual on page 2-2 under the heading "Fuel Requirements" the 1st paragraph reads ... " Your engine is designed to operate on premium grade unleaded fuel . However , with the electronic spark control system , you may use regular unleaded fuel at slightly reduced acceleration performance ." ... the OP's '85 may not require premium fuel , I don't know but it ain't hurting anything but his wallet ... for '87 and up , premium fuels are recommended .....
12-31-2017, 08:51 PM
#10
Race Director
That is what the manufacturers are counting on. Peddle some snake oil at $3 and one of 3 things will happen.
1. Sucker buys it and gets a placebo effect and shills for them
2. Sucker buys it and it doesn't work, tries a few times and loses interest.
3. Sucker buys it and it doesn't work and he forgets it
They only way to know is to conduct proper laboratory tests which the user cannot so the above goes on and on, reaping new suckers. Ask yourself this. If the product is so great, why wouldn't you, as a manufacturer want to commission a few independent, nationally accredited laboratories to show what they proved in the lab? I know I would use it as advertisement. UNLESS the laboratory test shows that the profitability depends on how gullible the buyer is.
1. Sucker buys it and gets a placebo effect and shills for them
2. Sucker buys it and it doesn't work, tries a few times and loses interest.
3. Sucker buys it and it doesn't work and he forgets it
They only way to know is to conduct proper laboratory tests which the user cannot so the above goes on and on, reaping new suckers. Ask yourself this. If the product is so great, why wouldn't you, as a manufacturer want to commission a few independent, nationally accredited laboratories to show what they proved in the lab? I know I would use it as advertisement. UNLESS the laboratory test shows that the profitability depends on how gullible the buyer is.
12-31-2017, 10:31 PM
#11
Team Owner
..... Premium gas is snake oil ? ... according to my 1987 Corvette owners manual on page 2-2 under the heading "Fuel Requirements" the 1st paragraph reads ... " Your engine is designed to operate on premium grade unleaded fuel . However , with the electronic spark control system , you may use regular unleaded fuel at slightly reduced acceleration performance ."
... the OP's '85 may not require premium fuel , I don't know but it ain't hurting anything but his wallet ... for '87 and up , premium fuels are recommended .....
... the OP's '85 may not require premium fuel , I don't know but it ain't hurting anything but his wallet ... for '87 and up , premium fuels are recommended .....
Without logging what it is doing, you are right. All it does is hurt the wallet if you go higher than necessary.
Last edited by aklim; 12-31-2017 at 10:37 PM.
12-31-2017, 10:35 PM
#12
Team Owner
More often than not, I can't seem to find published laboratory results for the additives. In my book "Claims + lack of proof = scam". If I peddle honest products, you will see my laboratory results on my web page and on my Facebook pages, sure, someone can post their testimonials.
12-31-2017, 10:39 PM
#13
Race Director
More often than not, I can't seem to find published laboratory results for the additives. In my book "Claims + lack of proof = scam". If I peddle honest products, you will see my laboratory results on my web page and on my Facebook pages, sure, someone can post their testimonials.
12-31-2017, 10:57 PM
#15
Team Owner
Nope. Referring to additives as a group, for the most part.
12-31-2017, 10:58 PM
#16
Team Owner
Where would the flakes come from? Wouldn't the KS pick it up and reduce timing till it cannot any more? Unless it falls out of the window of adjustment, where is the issue?
12-31-2017, 11:13 PM
#17
Melting Slicks
But there is an aether storm of truth to it. If reduce octane from 93 to 87 when using more than 10psi of boost on 2.0L engine, or 5psi of boost on my LS engine, subtle knock condition is possibly removing aluminum from the pistons and depositing it elsewhere (it is found on the plugs) after approx 95*F Ambient temperatures, and sufficient heating of the engine internals (exhaust gas temperature maybe 1400-1500*F). The relationship of octane to detonation threshold is dependent partially on temperature, compression ratio, chamber design, and other factors.
Perhaps if I ask a question in return it would help what I hope is learning process. Why isn't it favorable to use 87 octane fuel with 100% distilled water? What is the problem with lower octane fuels that makes them undesirable from the atomic point of view. To investigate this issue, you will want to look up what is n-heptane. Then,you will find a zero octane fuel, which is the basis of the system "they" use to make up the octane number we all use.
You also need to keep in mind that in order for the engine to detect knock, there should be knock present. That means the engine is already knocking. Now, the speed of your electronics comes into play. Old, slow ECU may not recognize and account for knock (it will try 1 thing first, then more, then more, then more, and each time it is knocking some) as fast as new ECU can. Under low load it will degrade the parts but of course under high load all it takes is one good BANG to blow a chuck from something.
Last edited by Kingtal0n; 12-31-2017 at 11:16 PM.
12-31-2017, 11:26 PM
#18
Team Owner
It was meant as a joke. Lets just get that out of the way and /post
But there is an aether storm of truth to it. If reduce octane from 93 to 87 when using more than 10psi of boost on 2.0L engine, or 5psi of boost on my LS engine, subtle knock condition is possibly removing aluminum from the pistons and depositing it elsewhere (it is found on the plugs) after approx 95*F Ambient temperatures, and sufficient heating of the engine internals (exhaust gas temperature maybe 1400-1500*F). The relationship of octane to detonation threshold is dependent partially on temperature, compression ratio, chamber design, and other factors.
Perhaps if I ask a question in return it would help what I hope is learning process. Why isn't it favorable to use 87 octane fuel with 100% distilled water? What is the problem with lower octane fuels that makes them undesirable from the atomic point of view. To investigate this issue, you will want to look up what is n-heptane. Then,you will find a zero octane fuel, which is the basis of the system "they" use to make up the octane number we all use.
You also need to keep in mind that in order for the engine to detect knock, there should be knock present. That means the engine is already knocking. Now, the speed of your electronics comes into play. Old, slow ECU may not recognize and account for knock (it will try 1 thing first, then more, then more, then more, and each time it is knocking some) as fast as new ECU can. Under low load it will degrade the parts but of course under high load all it takes is one good BANG to blow a chuck from something.
But there is an aether storm of truth to it. If reduce octane from 93 to 87 when using more than 10psi of boost on 2.0L engine, or 5psi of boost on my LS engine, subtle knock condition is possibly removing aluminum from the pistons and depositing it elsewhere (it is found on the plugs) after approx 95*F Ambient temperatures, and sufficient heating of the engine internals (exhaust gas temperature maybe 1400-1500*F). The relationship of octane to detonation threshold is dependent partially on temperature, compression ratio, chamber design, and other factors.
Perhaps if I ask a question in return it would help what I hope is learning process. Why isn't it favorable to use 87 octane fuel with 100% distilled water? What is the problem with lower octane fuels that makes them undesirable from the atomic point of view. To investigate this issue, you will want to look up what is n-heptane. Then,you will find a zero octane fuel, which is the basis of the system "they" use to make up the octane number we all use.
You also need to keep in mind that in order for the engine to detect knock, there should be knock present. That means the engine is already knocking. Now, the speed of your electronics comes into play. Old, slow ECU may not recognize and account for knock (it will try 1 thing first, then more, then more, then more, and each time it is knocking some) as fast as new ECU can. Under low load it will degrade the parts but of course under high load all it takes is one good BANG to blow a chuck from something.
IDK about 10 psi boost but regardless, wouldn't the ECM reduce the knock before serious damage or aluminum gets to be deposited anywhere? Caveat being it has to be within the adjustment window. So if 20 degrees of retard is required and all the window allows for is 10, we got a problem like you described. IIRC, it would retard the timing till it heard no knocking.
Again, IIRC, someone mentioned the KS as being TOO sensitive. They tried teflon tape to desensitize it. Not 100% sure but if you are right, sure. Assuming the vibration through the cylinders and through the water and block, the "microphone" should send a signal back to the ECM. How fast, IDK.
12-31-2017, 11:56 PM
#19
Melting Slicks
try not to disguise questions
Metal the way we see a "chunk" of depositing somewhere can come from the piston, head, or deck. Those are all part of the engine and they are all noticeably worn or pitted when metal leaves their respective surfaces, going wherever. The where they went isn't important. Detonation can also beat the parts without wearing them noticeably- those will fail suddenly, a chunk missing. That is the engine that lasted "60 runs and lost a piston". It was losing the piston on the first run.
Tuning 101: never rely on knock sensor for knock detection.
Knock sensors are tools, yes and should be used when possible but should never be depended upon to pull timing under normal circumstances. That thing better stay quiet no matter what I do. I will go through extra lengths to sensitize it and adjust octane for comparisons to ensure that as much real knock is going to show will show.
Tune the engine properly and forget about them because you will never know they are there when you're done.
If you are stuck with an ECU which has it's own definition of knock parameters (like a Power FC) your engine internals might not create frequencies detectable by the original knock sensor/algorithm if they are not the original internals. The engine is testing with a known knock condition and the frequencies most observed to always be present when there is knock is ingrained into the OEM parameters.
IDK about 10 psi boost but regardless, wouldn't the ECM reduce the knock before serious damage or aluminum gets to be deposited anywhere? Caveat being it has to be within the adjustment window. So if 20 degrees of retard is required and all the window allows for is 10, we got a problem like you described. IIRC, it would retard the timing till it heard no knocking.
Knock sensors are tools, yes and should be used when possible but should never be depended upon to pull timing under normal circumstances. That thing better stay quiet no matter what I do. I will go through extra lengths to sensitize it and adjust octane for comparisons to ensure that as much real knock is going to show will show.
Tune the engine properly and forget about them because you will never know they are there when you're done.
Again, IIRC, someone mentioned the KS as being TOO sensitive. They tried teflon tape to desensitize it. Not 100% sure but if you are right, sure. Assuming the vibration through the cylinders and through the water and block, the "microphone" should send a signal back to the ECM. How fast, IDK.
01-01-2018, 12:36 AM
#20
Team Owner
Tuning 101: never rely on knock sensor for knock detection. Knock sensors are tools, yes and should be used when possible but should never be depended upon to pull timing under normal circumstances. That thing better stay quiet no matter what I do. I will go through extra lengths to sensitize it and adjust octane for comparisons to ensure that as much real knock is going to show will show.
Tune the engine properly and forget about them because you will never know they are there when you're done.
If you are stuck with an ECU which has it's own definition of knock parameters (like a Power FC) your engine internals might not create frequencies detectable by the original knock sensor/algorithm if they are not the original internals. The engine is testing with a known knock condition and the frequencies most observed to always be present when there is knock is ingrained into the OEM parameters.
Tune the engine properly and forget about them because you will never know they are there when you're done.
If you are stuck with an ECU which has it's own definition of knock parameters (like a Power FC) your engine internals might not create frequencies detectable by the original knock sensor/algorithm if they are not the original internals. The engine is testing with a known knock condition and the frequencies most observed to always be present when there is knock is ingrained into the OEM parameters.
When knock occurs, does it only give out a certain vibrational frequency? IOW can knock occur and give out a sound OUTSIDE of the detection range? From what I see, the KS only transmits a signal to the ECM if the microphone picks up the vibration. If that is correct, the detonation vibration that falls OUTSIDE is not considered detonation and thus not compensated for by the ECM.