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help me find an awd car to sooth my winter driving woes

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Old 01-12-2018, 01:22 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by VikingTrad3r View Post
well mileage is a non issue. dont care. as for the functionality your comment does surprise me. do you live in mountainous snowy icy conditions? its been bery bad this winter driving condition wise in alberta canada and ive seen countless 2wd vehicles (front or rear) stuck up an icy incline with 50 cars behind it or stuck in deep 2ft of snow. The awd vehicles around here put on blizzacks or similar and drive almost as if there were no adverse conditions.
First, I'm not trying to change your mind, which is why I said the Stealth RT is the car I would go with. Also, its true I do not live in Alberta Canada, but if its as bad as you say, then I would probably drive a four wheel drive suv in the winter.

I'm not saying all wheel drive it isn't worth the extra expense if the average road conditions are just right, its just that those conditions exist in very few places. There is 6 inches of standing snow where I'm at in Mich. and no one is having any problems with any cars.
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Old 01-12-2018, 01:38 PM   #22
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I'd do the Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 before I even looked at a stealth. Most of the dodges are beat up piles. The VR4 has held up better.
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Old 01-12-2018, 02:03 PM   #23
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First, there is a distinction between 4wd and all wheel drive.
I am talking about all wheel drive. The biggest problem is they suffer from tire diameter related issues. Plus all the additional moving parts that wear out, just like a 4wd. Very few circumstances exist where an all wheel drive car, can pass through a roadway, but a front wheel drive car could not. Ultimately they end up not being worth the additional expenses for maintenance and fuel mileage.
Sorry, my english is failing me here (3rd language) - what is the difference between 4wd and awd? And please give me an example of the awd cars you are talking about?

I've been driving Audi Quattros for 20 years, Ford Sierra Cosworth at some point earlier and Subaru WRX STi in many occasions, Mitsubishi couple of times. Also Toyota pickups and Land and Range Rovers. Never had any tire diameter problems nor have I worn out drive related parts in any more than any of my rear wheel drives. In fact much less but that is most probably because the 4wd's see most of their punishment in low friction situations which is less tough on them.

For every day winter use in Canada (similar climate to Finland where I live) I would recommend full time 4 wheel drives like the Torsen Quattros, Subarus, Mitsubishis and to my knowledge BMW X-drives. Land/Range Rovers if you like to tinker with repairs a lot
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Old 01-12-2018, 02:09 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by PatternDayTrader View Post
First, there is a distinction between 4wd and all wheel drive.
I am talking about all wheel drive. The biggest problem is they suffer from tire diameter related issues. Plus all the additional moving parts that wear out, just like a 4wd. Very few circumstances exist where an all wheel drive car, can pass through a roadway, but a front wheel drive car could not. Ultimately they end up not being worth the additional expenses for maintenance and fuel mileage.
My Dad once told me he didn't like AWD because it had double the CV joints of a FWD car and more to break. I then asked him if he would prefer a 4 cylinder to an 8 cylinder based on that logic. Theoretically if the AWD has 50/50 F/R torque split the parts handle half the power compared to a FWD or RWD car. I have owned 3 AWD cars (manual transmission) at various times and each had things they did very well. My WRX accelerated better in the rain than any car I have ever owned even though it wasn't that much HP. My Audi Quattro 90 and Outback were the best cars I ever had in snow for forward traction. The big thing is even if you have AWD you still need good tires and they can get you into trouble. They cannot overcome the laws of physics and allow you to stop better than a FWD car. Some people get over confident because they have AWD or 4WD.
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Old 01-12-2018, 02:11 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by ToniH View Post
Sorry, my english is failing me here (3rd language) - what is the difference between 4wd and awd? And please give me an example of the awd cars you are talking about?

I've been driving Audi Quattros for 20 years, Ford Sierra Cosworth at some point earlier and Subaru WRX STi in many occasions, Mitsubishi couple of times. Also Toyota pickups and Land and Range Rovers. Never had any tire diameter problems nor have I worn out drive related parts in any more than any of my rear wheel drives. In fact much less but that is most probably because the 4wd's see most of their punishment in low friction situations which is less tough on them.

For every day winter use in Canada (similar climate to Finland where I live) I would recommend full time 4 wheel drives like the Torsen Quattros, Subarus, Mitsubishis and to my knowledge BMW X-drives. Land/Range Rovers if you like to tinker with repairs a lot
At one time 4WD meant a part-time system without a center differential. AWD meant a full-time system with some sort of center differential. Now marketing has caused confusion between the terms.
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Old 01-12-2018, 02:11 PM   #26
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lol!
never considered a sedan type car. ive seen mods (headlights, taillights, rims) to the mk1 TT that help it look more masculine. here in western canada vw and other euro cars are very popular because of awd and our mountain driving.
My 72 year old mom drives a MK1 TT Quattro. Nice car but if you are 6ft or more then try one out to see if you can even see out of it. The roof line is lower than many other cars. Feels weird at first but I guess you can get used to it. Rear seats are pretty much unusable, trunk is super small. Great front seats. Not big fan of Haldex though.
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Old 01-12-2018, 02:17 PM   #27
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At one time 4WD meant a part-time system without a center differential. AWD meant a full-time system with some sort of center differential. Now marketing has caused confusion between the terms.
Ok, thanks for the clarification. It seems the terms are used pretty much interchangeably nowadays, even by manufacturers. But then I understand the statement about the problems even less as the cars I was talking about are full time AWD and I see no such problems IRL.

Term usage, like here, by Audi:

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Old 01-12-2018, 02:30 PM   #28
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Never had any tire diameter problems nor have I worn out drive related parts in any more than any of my rear wheel drives.
Consider yourself lucky. At the minimum you still paid a price in fuel mileage.
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Old 01-12-2018, 02:37 PM   #29
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Consider yourself lucky. At the minimum you still paid a price in fuel mileage.
I'll rephrase: I've never heard about these problems mentioned before enough to give a second thought and I have been active in Audi circles for a long time. I suspect you as a desert dweller (just kidding) don't really know what you are talking about and/or you are parrotting some misguided internet wisdom. Winter (slippery) is quite easy for any drive system wearwise. And any of them need maintenance over long period, I don't consider awd maintenance costs anything special.

Fuel mileage, really? In Corvette Forum? Meh...

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Old 01-12-2018, 02:49 PM   #30
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what color did u get Tom?
Ours was red. We weren't partial to any particular color...we found this one locally and it was a 1 owner, adult owned w/80k miles on it. So we bought it. All the colors they offered on that car were fantastic though, and the paint quality and durability is way, WAY better than on a 'Vette. My wife and I tracked the car a couple times, and predictably, it did about as well as the '92 and was about as fun...but the experience was way different (AWD and turbos). Honestly though, the funnest thing in that car was 2nd gear, full boost, all-wheel power slides in the snow. Point it where you want to go and enjoy the blast.

Pics are not that great, and sorry for all the text, but these are the only pics I have of it here at work.

Jackson II1 (002).pdf
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Old 01-12-2018, 03:00 PM   #31
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I'd do the Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 before I even looked at a stealth. Most of the dodges are beat up piles. The VR4 has held up better.
Say what?? They're the same car, made in the same factory, with the same materials, by the same people (and robots). How could one "hold up better" than another? It can't. That's like saying that a Silverado held up better than a Sierra. You'll find beater 3000's and beater Stealths...and mint Stealth's and mint 3000's. All depends on where/how what you look for -just like any car.
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Old 01-12-2018, 03:00 PM   #32
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I'll rephrase: I've never heard about these problems mentioned before enough to give a second thought and I have been active in Audi circles for a long time. I suspect you as a desert dweller (just kidding) don't really know what you are talking about and/or you are parrotting some misguided internet wisdom. Winter (slippery) is quite easy for any drive system wearwise. And any of them need maintenance over long period, I don't consider awd maintenance costs anything special.

Fuel mileage, really? In Corvette Forum? Meh...
Its true that winter weather and slippery terrain will not cause the wear and tear the same way that dry pavement and summertime conditions will. Its when you have traction that there's a problem.
Did you even watch the video you posted ? Did you see what happens to Audis "crown differential" when the front and rear driveshaft speeds are not the same ?
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Old 01-12-2018, 03:10 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by PatternDayTrader
Its true that winter weather and slippery terrain will not cause the wear and tear the same way that dry pavement and summertime conditions will. Its when you have traction that there's a problem.
Did you even watch the video you posted ? Did you see what happens to Audis "crown differential" when the front and rear driveshaft speeds are not the same ?
No, I only watched the first 10 seconds where Audi called the AWD system 4WD-system twice.

I know the tyre diameter must be quite close to same. No problem at all if you use same size tyres all around and rotate them as usual. If you want to hot rod it then maybe 4wd/awd is not for you.
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Old 01-12-2018, 03:18 PM   #34
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No, I only watched the first 10 seconds where Audi called the AWD system 4WD-system twice.

I know the tyre diameter must be quite close to same. No problem at all if you use same size tyres all around and rotate them as usual. If you want to hot rod it then maybe 4wd/awd is not for you.
What happens if you don't rotate them ? What happens if you need to replace just one tire because of road hazard ?. Or you have to use the temp spare for an extended number of miles ?
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Old 01-12-2018, 04:00 PM   #35
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What happens if you don't rotate them ? What happens if you need to replace just one tire because of road hazard ?. Or you have to use the temp spare for an extended number of miles ?
Oh, dear - you are getting desperate aren't you. Ok, you win - AWD is a bad idea, even for Canadians who need to cope with snow and ice. The fact that its 100x better to drive in slippery winter conditions than 2wd is nothing compared to possible tyre costs if you run into a road hazard...

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Old 01-12-2018, 04:30 PM   #36
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Oh, dear - you are getting desperate aren't you. Ok, you win - AWD is a bad idea, even for Canadians who need to cope with snow and ice. The fact that its 100x better to drive in slippery winter conditions than 2wd is nothing compared to possible tyre costs if you run into a road hazard...
I didn't say it was a bad idea. I said it comes with lots of problems that other cars do not suffer from. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Old 01-12-2018, 05:58 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by VikingTrad3r View Post
i cant handle this cold is beating down my fun driving. im not driving my vette in the winter. where i live i get winter for 5 months a year.

help me find something to buy. Here are the rules:

A). it has to be classic and at least a little bit older. It's just who I am, I like buying classic cars that you don't see every day. I'm a child of the 90s having graduated in 1994 so if you can find something from that era even better.

B) it has to be all wheel drive. Here in lies the reason why I'm even bothering to post this. There aren't very many to choose from. Especially ones that look half decent. Maybe I'm missing one and I'm hoping my C4 brothers can help.

C) it would be nice if it was relatively easy for me to wrench on. I enjoy it and it gives me therapy. Not like I'm nuts and need therapy but I mean like for the same reason my wife goes for yoga I like to wrench my car therapy.

D) there is no D. i need a car that i can tinker and improve thats awd and looks good with a nice set of rims and some blizzaks on it.

I considered an awd porsche both the 911 style and the cayanne suv. im told the cayanne drives like a race car.

Anyway, im posting this here because you guys know the itch that I need to scratch. I'm dying to go for a drive in my vette but I can't. I need something else that I can drive. Help a brother out and brainstorm with me.
I know you said you prefer an older car but I enjoy driving my 2016 Lexus RC300 F-Sport. It is not fast at 255HP but it does handle well, it is a comfortable highway cruiser with great seats. And it drives very nice in the snow (better than my old 1999 Jeep GrandCherokee).
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Old 01-12-2018, 07:13 PM   #38
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I didn't say it was a bad idea. I said it comes with lots of problems that other cars do not suffer from. Nothing more, nothing less.
There is no "lots of problems that other cars do not suffer from". That is just an ignorant generalization on matter you really don't know much about. There is few more wearable parts over 10+ years, little more fuel consumption but much better driveability over 2wd cars in slippery conditions (wet, snow, ice).

The cost of owning a awd over 2wd is insigficant if your life and income situation is normal. And if its not then maybe one should not consider another fun (awd or anything else) car along the Vette for winter driving.

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Old 01-12-2018, 07:51 PM   #39
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There is no "lots of problems that other cars do not suffer from". That is just an ignorant generalization on matter you really don't know much about. There is few more wearable parts over 10+ years, little more fuel consumption but much better driveability over 2wd cars in slippery conditions (wet, snow, ice).

The cost of owning a awd over 2wd is insigficant if your life and income situation is normal. And if its not then maybe one should not consider another fun (awd or anything else) car along the Vette for winter driving.
Of course there are problems other cars don't suffer from. All the problems associated with all wheel drive systems. Don't pretend those components don't fail, you already admitted they wear out. There is nothing ignorant about stating the obvious. The cost of owning an awd vehicle is significant if your unfortunate enough to suffer from a breakdown, or an unfortunate occurrence, such as sliding into a curb. Obviously awd vehicles have a place in this world, but I cant pretend the problems don't need to be considered. Just the tire thing alone can turn a minor hassle into a much bigger problem depending on circumstances. The video you posted about Audis system shows a set of hydraulic actuated clutch plates, presumably by a pressure control solenoid controlled by the pcm, along with a couple dozen other parts. You know what doesn't have all that ? A two wheel drive vehicle. You don't have to agree with it, but its reality. The better control offered in certain driving situations has value, but if your not struggling with a typical 2wd car, then that value is limited at best.
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Old 01-12-2018, 08:33 PM   #40
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If you really want AWD classic a late 80's Audi Quattro Coupe. Those things tore up the rally courses back then.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_Quattro




Now that's winter driving
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