Please forgive me, as this may be long. I'm new here and you all seem to have some amazing knowlege between you and I thought I'd pick your brains since the shop can't figure anything out.

In July my Vette started developing starting problems, ie it would take 4 to 5 long cranks to get it going. So I took it to the shop thinking with my naive head that it would be something simple.

They changed the computer, and did who knows what else, I know they flushed the injectors too, and said its fixed. Took it home and went to start it up a little later in the day, still did the same exact thing. Then I noticed it was idling badly too. So back to the shop it went the next morning.

So they had it for several more weeks and told us its fixed again. I think this time they changed the computer prongs, oxygen sensor and maybe other things. They say they hook it up to the computer and it gives them no trouble codes.

So we take it home and it seems to be starting a little better, but now taking 2 to 3 cranks and still not idling like it was before I took it in. My husband and I take it for about an hour and a half drive and halfway home it starts dying at every stop. The RPMs are dropping so low that its just dying. So we limp home and take it in once again.

They had it for a week and asked me to take it home for the weekend and report back on what its doing. I don't know if they even did anything to it this week. Turns out they did something to my thermostat and I couldn't even drive it a mile without it getting way too hot, so we take it back in on Monday and they fixed the thermostat.

They've now had it for two more weeks and have decided that its one of the injectors thats bad. But, they say we have to replace all of them. First question, is this true? So today I am in desperate need of a car since my husbands just went down and I go get the car since I can at least drive it.

So today it seems to be running pretty good. Starting on the first try, idling pretty good, much better than the previous times, but still not as good as before the problems. I have now decided (should have made this decision long ago, I know, shame on me) not to take the car back to them.

So my big question is, what are some of your thoughts on this? I am going to have them make me copies of everything they did the car so that I have a better idea and when and if I take it somewhere else I can show them whats already been done. From what I understand, several other parts were changed on the car as well, but at this point I don't know what. Thanks in advance!

 

Oh yeah, supposedly they checked the likely suspects: starter, fuel pump.

 

Cold start injector, the ninth injector in our car 1988. I think they played around with your timing therefore the idling getting worse.

I have the same problem with mine right now. When the engine is cold, less than 100 degree, it took several tried before the car started. I also had hot start problem before too, and that was the injectors leak, changed all 8 injectors three more than two years ago and hot start problem gone.

 

I would really like to see exactly what was replaced and what was done to the car. I can think of quite a few things that would cause wht both of you are experiencing. If I were working on the car(s) I would for one thing monitor fuel pressure. I like to leave a guage on the car 'till it's repaired. I would also like to look at the EGR because of the idle concerns. The IAC could also be a problem, But it would cause an idle SPEED concern not an idle quality concern. The injectors would definately be an idle quality deal but usually they don't all go bad at once........ the reason I did all mine at once is because of the labor. I do all my own work so while I was inthere I just replaced them with the Motorsports 24# injectors. That's anoother reason I like to have the fuel pressure guage hooked up all the time..... (I have one permanently mounted on MY engine). Injectors could also cause the hard start but it would be noticed with a leak down test. That would also help to decide wheter the fuel pump is the culprit. They sometimes leak back through the pump or also the fuel pressure regulator sometimes leaks off and THAT will cause an Idle quality issue because it will make the car go RICH........ well there are a few things off the top of my head ...... if you need any more let me know and you can e-mail me
Mike :seeya

 

:eek: Run :eek: Don't walk away from these guys as fast as you can. MAF Sensor, Vacuum leak, Fuel pump all came to mind first. Start a new thread in your region "Pacific" and get the name of a favored mechanic(s) that are being used out your way.

 

I agree. Find a competent mechanic. (Not easy, but there are still some around) These cars aren't THAT complicated. If you eliminate any mechanical failure (valvetrain and valve-timing problems mainly) and vacuum leaks, then you can usually troubleshoot the rest of the system with a fuel pressure gauge, a digital VOM, and a service manual. Good luck!

---Jason

 

I agree with the rest of the guys - you need a new mechanic.
My 88 was exhibiting exactly the same problems.
I did my own tune-up and it now runs great, here is what I did:
Removed the throttle body and cleaned it until there was no carbon left.
This took a long time and a couple of cans of spray throttle body cleaner.
Took a paper towel and gently cleaned my MAF screens
Replaced all 8 plugs and wires
Replaced distributor cap, rotor and coil
I think the wires and coil were 80% of my problem, plugs looked OK with light brown deposits.
I probably should have changed the electronics in the distributor as well, but as I said, right now it starts on the second or third rotation of the engine (depending on the temperature) idles smooth and pulls right to the red-line.

JMHO - hope it helps

 

You've taken the first step, getting a list of things that shop did to your Vette.

Now, as mentioned, take it to a good local shop to get it fixed.

Usually long cranking when warm is due to:
-leaking injectors
-vacuum leak
poor idle can be due to:
-dirty throttle body & plates,
-dirty/faulty Idle Air Control valve,
-vacuum leaks
stalling and dying out can be due to:
-faulty idle adjustment,
-bad Mass Air Flow sensor

Of course there are other things that can cause the above problems.

Most likely your original problem was due to one or more leaking fuel injectors. There is a guy in MI that reconditions them for about $10/injector; just running a cleaning fluid through them usually doesn't get the job done.

Good luck with your quest for a competant shop.

 

Thanks guys! Being a girl and this being my first vette, I'm trying to learn all that I can. Drove the car a lot today and it is starting perfect now but not quite idling right. I will be getting copies of everything they've done and I will post in the Pacific board to find a good mechanic.

I am lucky though, that I used to work at this place back in high school and its a small town dealership and they are charging me for very little of what they've done. They admit that they don't know whats wrong and say they've done a ton of research. At least I'm not out lots of $$$ for all of this runaround and headache. Plus my brother dates the owner's granddaughter so I think that helps in not being charged for everything. ;)


[Modified by SprntLvr, 9:41 PM 10/15/2002]

 

what's the smell??
does it smell rich just after it starts...if so;
sounds like a leaking fuel injector... 2 solutions 1- replace it, 2- push the pedal down on start to admit more air..
also if it is a leaking injector, the problem may go away if you let it sit for a week..(let her sit a week, crank her... fires right up, only let her sit 4 or 5 hours... cranks long... I think there is more info in tech section. Sorry to hear they are getting for a computer... doesn't fit the symptoms

 

It does smell rich with a little puff of grey smoke to go along with it. So if only one injector is bad as they claim, I can just have that one replaced not all of them? And yeah, it is bad that they're getting me for the computer. I told them since that didn't fix it to put my old one back in it, but they wouldn't and said it was bad and I needed a new one anyway. They've done so much and I have lots of new parts on the car that I'm not going to complain about the computer too much.

 

That sounds like :bs to me

 

Sounds like it to me too Chuck, but like I said since they've done so much other stuff that they're not charging me for, and they could, I'm not gonna make too much of a stink.

 

I had the same problem with my '88 vert for months. Hard starting and really bad idle. It got progressively worse (first 2 cranks, then 3 or 4, then 5 or 6 cranks) until I was to the point that I could crank it for an eternity and it would not fire. If I shot some cleaner in the throttle body it would start right up and continue to run, though poorly. When I described it to my dad, he said "fuel pump". When talking with other guys and 'mechanics', they said it wasn't the pump or it wouldn't run at all.

So, I started replacing stuff, cleaning stuff, the whole time suspecting the pump. Nothing worked. Still I suspected the pump, but those 'mechanics' insisted it was something else. Finally, I took it to a little, privately owned shop out in nowhere and described the problem to the guy there. He said "bad fuel pump". Ok, I had him replace it (yeah, I know I could have done it myself, but was mighty frustrated at that point).

He replaced the pump. Now my car starts on the first turn of the key and idles just fine.

So, even thought these guys told you the pump was good, they may not have actually tested it. To save yourself more time and headache, I'd suggest getting a fuel pressure gauge and testing it yourself or taking it to a place and watch them test the pump, just to be sure.

Good luck!


[Modified by DVAST8R_88, 5:04 PM 10/16/2002]

 

Check the resistance of the injectors. If they are stock Multec's (greenish-grey), they should read 16-17 ohms.

 

:lol: :yesnod: :lol:

Right there with you! Glad to see that you got your problem solved.

 

SprntLvr,

As mentioned it could be several things contributing to your problem, however, I have an 88 and had almost exactly the same problem. It turned out to be the infamous 9th injector or Cold Start Valve( CSV). The 88 and earlier vettes have a cold start injector which was done away with in 89. Again, it could be something else but here is why I suspect an injector with the 9th being my first choice.

1) There was a Service Bulletin issued by GM for early 88 injectors. The original design was replaced by a different injector manufacturer under warranty for those who complained. Generally the CSV injector was left out of the replacements.

2) When you start up you smell gas. That is a sign of richness at idle and too much fuel (not a shortage) during the start cycle. I had exactly the same condition.

3) You don't mention any problem at cruising speed. The ECM is in closed loop and is able to compensate by way of the new? O2 sensor readings. Fuel flow need is greater at cruise than at idle and you don't mention experiencing stumble or hesitation at cruise or in traffic under acceleration.

4) Changing the ECM did not help because the CSV injector is not controlled by the ECM. The CSV is controlled by a Thermal Time Switch which is in the block just below the throttle body. (It is possible that this unit could be going bad. SWITCH, COLD START F/INJ (1988).....part# 14084318) Not very expensive or hard to replace, see Jeff Koop.

Just disconnecting the 9th injector wiring connection doesn't solve the problem because it still will have fuel and can continue to leak.

The 9th injector is very different physically from the other 8 injectors and cannot be ordered from GM or any other parts stores any more. I've tried. Rich at cruzinperformance can send you a new one or rebuild your old one.

If you have an automatic, you can remove the injector and get a block off kit to plug the hole. Then replace the memcal chip in the ECM with one from an 89 auto. The 89 has compensation built in for not having the 9th injector. I have read reports that 88 autos with an 89 auto chip run better than ever. This option is not available to manual transmission owners because the ECM for 88 manual tranny cars controls aspects of the 4+3 which did not exist in 89 manual cars.

I see that you are in CA. If you are close to Sacramento there is an EXCELLENT Corvette shop called Corvette Care 916-638-1911. Keith Becky and crew are knowledgeable and totally honest.

P.S. Depending on your vette's mileage you might want to consider replacing/rebuilding all 9 injectors at the same time. It could be more than one leaking. Especially if you have the original early design units.


[Modified by Mike_88Z51, 4:45 PM 10/16/2002]

 

Thanks everyone for all of your suggestions. I'm going to print this thread out so I don't lose it!

 

When my injectors went bad, it would take longer and longer to crank and start. This only happened when the car was warm. In the morning, it would start right up but if I drove it for a half hour and went out later to start it, it would crank forever. I replaced the stock injectors with FMS 24lb injectors and it has been great.

 

:lol: :lol: Well! I guess you have to take the car back to them for more work.

Change all injectors not just one at a time. You could get your old injectors test and clean for $11 each instead of buying a whole new set.