Why are C4 wheel bearings so problematical? I see in the pic above what looks like a ball race type bearing, I always thought a taper roller bearing was the go to for wheel bearings? That's what my C3 has and I don't hear countless C3 owners moaning about failed when bearings and before anyone says it - yeah I know a C4 can corner harder than a C3 I have both It sure costs a lot more to replace wheel bearings in a C4 than a C3 but changing the rear ones in a C3 is a much bigger PIA!
I would. If there was a KNOWN, bomber, well made bearing that was $200....I'd buy it. Hell....I spent nearly that on those SKF units that just failed on me.
No doubt that a lot of us from this forum would. But that's such a teensy segment of their market. The average owner of a 4th-gen F-body, S10, or even C4 isn't tracking their car and won't spend that kind of money for replacement parts. Unfortunately.
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Originally Posted by Haggisbash
Why are C4 wheel bearings so problematical? I see in the pic above what looks like a ball race type bearing, I always thought a taper roller bearing was the go to for wheel bearings? That's what my C3 has and I don't hear countless C3 owners moaning about failed when bearings and before anyone says it - yeah I know a C4 can corner harder than a C3 I have both It sure costs a lot more to replace wheel bearings in a C4 than a C3 but changing the rear ones in a C3 is a much bigger PIA!
Yep, they switched to the seal units pulled parts off the shelf from the front of a 4wd S10 pickup for the rear bearings and shared the front bearings from the F-body. I'm sure it came down to cost. The problem, as I understand it, is that those ball-bearing units don't handle high lateral loads very well. They don't really have a good thrust surface for that kind of loading. And C4 on sticky tires generates more lateral loads. Tapered roller bearings are a great solution, X-tracker bearings that have ball bearing races set up to better manage the lateral loads. You can buy a kit to use the X-trackers up front for about $1000, but again almost nobody is willing to spend that kind of a money on a C4 or F-body. You used to be able to buy a tapered roller rear bearing from WBI, but not anymore. I'm sure if they had sold well they'd still be making them.
You used to be able to buy a tapered roller rear bearing from WBI, but not anymore. I'm sure if they had sold well they'd still be making them.
I believe you could also buy a tapered roller from Timken. I recall that some had tried it w/mixed and dubious results....results similar to what we see with the typical ball wheel bearings.
Here's another story: '08 Dodge Charger R/T, had a tensioner pulley eat itself while my wife was driving. I don't know how she made it home. she tells me the car was making a strange noise, so OK I go out and start the car and the whole thing just lets loose. I mean ball bearings on the ground, belt flies off, melted plastic pulley. Still don't know how this thing stayed together for her to get home. So long story short, get a tensioner pulley from Gates and it works fine. Later in the week my mechanic buddy says I should change the idler pulley also. So I order one but can't get a gates but they have a Dayco, OK fine. Take the pulley out of the box and this brand new pulley has more slop in the bearing than the one I'm taking off and it has 340k miles on it. Needless to say I put the old one back on. So yes the new stuff out there has no regard for tolerances or fit. Where did the QC go? Out the window it went.
A few years ago I came to the conclusion that regardless of brand it is hit or miss on wheel bearings.
I also paid for the expensive ones and they failed within about a year. I replaced them with the cheapest I could find (although they said made in USA) and they lasted a few years until I sold the car. Since then I have done several other cars and used the cheapest I could find and they have all lasted pretty well. I just consider them as wear parts and will need changing when they go. Although it is a pain to do it over, it is only a few hours and the cost difference makes it worthwhile for me.
I also agree with KyleF on a lot of his observations. I have been a design engineer, process engineer, production manager, quality manager/director at several manufacturing companies (mostly automotive including an auto manufacturer and 1st tier suppliers and most were ISO/QS/AS) and have seen a lot of ways that things can go wrong and what it takes to do it right. Many companies do not have a clue how to do it.
Good luck with your next set. Hopefully they will last better.
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Originally Posted by MatthewMiller
All true about the manufacturing process. The thing is, a factory in China could make quality parts, and in some cases they do. But they have to be held to a standard, and that costs - you guessed it - money. If the manufacturing process is going to cost nearly the same there as here, then why not make it here? But then you're trying to sell a $200 bearing against the $39 China specials, and as already noted that is unlikely to succeed. The reality is that the average C4 or F-body or S-10 owners (vehicles that share wheel bearings) aren't interested in paying hundreds of dollars for a wheel bearing. That market is what it is. OTOH, in high end audio (as just one example) the actual parts are usually made somewhere else and all sent to be assembled in small Chinese shops where the company (usually also small with hands-on engineers and management) has real oversight. They can assemble just as high-quality products but save tons of money on the tedious hand assembly of low-quantity items like that. It just depends on what we're talking about. Someone mentioned Korea: I wish we could get replacement parts made there! Or Taiwan. Good luck. If someone has proof that you can buy new Moog bearings that are still made in the US, that would be good to know. I think a lot of people on this forum would still buy those.
I'm also involved in the Engineering profession, having worked at Federal-Mogul (Bower/BCA), later bought out by NTN, for 21 years in ball and roller bearing research. That was about 18 years ago, so my thoughts on the subject should be taken with a grain of salt... BTW, I'm still in the Engineering profession, working at American Axle, testing balance shaft modules and systems. One issue that hasn't been addressed, which is perhaps the most important, is the steel quality going into these bearings. Ball bearings, if installed correctly and lubricated well, will eventually fail by rolling contact fatigue. The sub-surface stresses in ball bearing can be very high, as the contact patch is quite small. Steel cleanliness is defined, in part, by the amount of non-metallic inclusions in the steel, which are impurities that act as stress risers leading to micro-cracks, that make their way to the surface and cause material to flake off (spalling). You can have two IDENTICALLY machined bearings, produced by the best, most attentive workers, to the exact same dimensional tolerances, and one may fail very prematurely, if it was made with sub-standard steel. Now, if the company maintains high standards for the material, just like the machining process, you'll likely get a superior bearing. The problem is, buying cheaper steel means buying dirtier steel, in most cases. It's often the 'bean counters' that create the problems, and the Engineers/Manufacturers who catch the blame for poor performance. I know that material quality is also a part of the whole certification process, but it's just something else to think about...
Time, labor, machines, raw materials, company culture and overhead costs all affect profit. It is how the company's philosophy on dealing with such determines how good the end product is.
One of the shops I worked at produced the main shaft bearing for the 1st nuclear submarine the U.S. built. That company's culture and such was precision and whatever it took to get it (within reason of course).
I had the bearing out in ~20 minutes and was hoping to have the thing done in ~an hour....but it completely tore up the "teflon" washer....so I need to order a couple of those. . Now the car will sit for a couple days.
[QUOTE=Tom400CFI;1602324732]My memory was on point. SKF:
I had the bearing out in ~20 minutes and was hoping to have the thing done in ~an hour....but it completely tore up the "teflon" washer....so I need to order a couple of those. . Now the car will sit for a couple days.
You were a lot more fortunate than I was.
I hammered away for 2 days to get those $@?/* bolts out. Heat, impact gun, hammering. Finally came out with a breaker bar, a length of pipe, and a floor jack.
Glad you could find the teflon washers. I had heard they were getting hard to find. Hope yours come in soon so it isn't down as long.
Good luck.
Thanks! We'll see. I actually ordered a pair from two different places -neither said they were out of stock but neither said they had 'em, either. I'll likely call them tomorrow to either confirm or cancel the order(s).
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Originally Posted by 89dd
You were a lot more fortunate than I was.
I hammered away for 2 days to get those $@?/* bolts out. Heat, impact gun, hammering. Finally came out with a breaker bar, a length of pipe, and a floor jack.
I'm pretty happy to say that volunteer Vette products came through. Washers arrived today. Never even heard of those guys before but I have to say, they're all right.
I bought some bearings for a Toyota Corolla. OEm box, not OEM inside. I think they NSK, something. Come to find out, they are outsourced worldwide, so you wont know till you open the box.
Moog does this too..
I wish they would just make serviceable bearings again. At least you can take the things apart, grease and put back together.
PS, I blame NAFTA for outsourcing stuff.
Is there any way to dismantle the hubs (in a non destructive fashion)? It would be interesting to see if a replacement bearing could be fitted inside.
If you think you have it tough with C4 hubs try having an Aprilia Futura motorcycle, in their wisdom Aprilia decided to use a single sided swing arm for the back suspension meaning the wheel hub has only one bearing in it called the king bearing, this bearing is unique to this motorcycle and it incorporates magnets that make a pulse as they pass a sensor to feed a signal to the speedometer. I believe the bearing is made by SKF but because of its uniqueness one will cost you around a $1000
The C4 bearings get destroyed when taken apart. Years ago I believe someone on the forum took one apart.
I think a zerk idea is great. Then you could flush out grease and put synthetic at a minimum.
Years ago, shop teacher I knew used a unique process to cool bearings in his road racing Vette. Every time he bit the brakes, a pump would push water to nozzles, cooling the bearings. Would that help?
C4 rear bearings are under load, due to design. GM knew it. Its a weak point.
. Now the car will sit for a couple days.
