Just installed the Vette2Vette C4 No Flex Frame Stiffener Bar System last weekend. It only comes in black but I had the bars powder coated red to match my Wilwood Brake calipers and the only thing I love more than the way it looks is how much better the car feels now. Substantially more solid and planted with or without the targa top in.

 

I think it's called "the placebo effect".

 

With the target top installed does this product help to increase the perceived rigidity of the car?

 

And yet, we have threads like this in C4 General (post #24 and others) that say differently. Also, I hope someone reviews one of those new tops from Target.

 

Negative, I'm not a noob in the car world. Its an obvious difference in the feel of the car and its easily verifiable by removing your targa top and measuring between the top of the windshield frame and the B-pillar, then lifting the car with a two post lift and measuring again. The gap will be wider with the wheels off the ground. Now install the brace and repeat. The measurements don't change. The Corvette Challenge race cars in the late 80s ran a similar system.

 

Its a night and day difference whether the top is in or out. The car is substantially more solid and planted. No more squeaks or creaks. The only squeaks are from the leather seats.

 

Would you jack the car, support it from the "lift here" points using 3 stands: two under the front, and one in the rear on either side (your choice).
THEN, would you take the roof off, make and post a vid of you, on the opposite rear corner as the rear jack stand, lifting that rear 1/4 up and down vigorously? Position the camera such that we can see the relative movement of the halo and windshield...as shown in the following video. I'd like to see that comparison, if you don't mind spending 1/2 hour on that?



Check a couple other similar vids in THIS POST

 

Can it be combined with the x-brace? Will it have any positive effect?

 

Man, I wish I had come across that before we did the vid. Might have to go back and do some before and after shots like that along with doing the measurements.

 

No, they do interfere w/each other. They both fasten to the same locations.

WRT the vids....PLEASE DO!

The vids I made....they're pretty shocking, aren't they? I couldn't believe it.


.

 

Tom, you made that vid 2-3 yrs ago, right? I remember it AND am thinking the front, lateral frame of the car is "the culprit"? (Maybe where the door jams are welded to the lower frame?***) As such, I'm not sure the V2V bars OR the X-brace would cure what you show...though both TOGETHER would provide the best stiffening. (Also a camber brace.)

***Note: And....the quality/aging of those welds would make a fairly big difference how C4's "age" with respect to stiffness. Speaking of things that are shocking, I remember you saying GM designed the frames for a 20-yr lifespan?

Chase_GHT, I'm glad you say you're not a noob. (I think I've seen another vid from you too). I have to admit you saying your decision AGAINST an X-brace due to exhaust size (presumably diameter?) sounded a bit on the amateur side. A large exhaust will fit in the tunnel. Even if it didn't people have "pieced" the middle of their X-brace to accomdate size AND access of exhaust. (I actually think ACCESS to exhaust -- and the need for X-brace modification -- would be the bigger negative for most buyers. Also don't know how many X-braces are still running around out there).

 

I haven't 100% decided what I'm doing in regards to the engine and, by extension, exhaust. Suffice to say, I MIGHT have more to consider than the standard two 3 inch exhaust pipes going on under there. Even if I knew that the factory convertible x-brace wouldn't interfere I still wouldn't have used it. There is too much room for improvement over 80s OEM engineering tech that is easy to beat The good news for all of us is that the C4 platform is starting to gain some heat and, having been in the automotive aftermarket for the past decade and a half and now in automotive media, I can tell you that they have noticed. There is some cool stuff coming for our cars.

 

That's why I'm so curious to see a reproduction of the vids that I made, but w/the V2V bars in place.

 

I don't think the V2V bars are better than an X-brace. What it targets is different than an X-brace. Certainly, it may be more available though. I also get that you're trying to draw attention to a "story" via visual means. It's the new thing. Over the years, I posted every stupid thought in my head -- so my extensive posts in the CF tell a story. But, there's too much and it goes WAY off into the weeds too often. There's certainly room for C4 build-telling. As for newer tech looming on the horizon? To be honest, I'm skeptical you'll show anything new. If I were honest, I suspect the X-brace does a better job than the V2V bars -- to address the issue conveyed in Tom's video a few years ago. Connecting the frame rails and reducing "twisting" probably comes closer than making the square-tubing-side-rails stiffer. Having the targa in place is likely to perform more of the x-brace stiffening than side-rail stiffening too. Of course, that's intuitively speaking....and likely why Tom would like to see visual feedback via video.

The trend has been AWAY from C4 aftermarket for many years (primarily due to LSx engines IMO). From someone who's been an owner for 23 years, it seems like (at least so far) you are trying to rewrap old news in YouTube Vids. Not to say I don't watch or appreciate the effort. But, it doesn't seem like you're introducing anything new yet. (The V-2-V bars aren't even that new). Certainly, I'll be all ears if new products really come down the pike.

Funny thing is...many NEEDED items don't need to be re-engineered...they just need to become available again. Top of the list: DMFs, rubber bushings, teflon washers, etc....

 

I had the Vette 2 Vette frame stiffeners many years ago when they first came out and the powder coating was peeling. At first I thought it made a slight difference with the roof panel in place as far as rattles and noises in the car interior.
But when I took the roof panel off the cowl still shook and the car still felt like a wet noodle.
I actually tried adjusting them to the point of only having 3 threads left on the turn buckles. Then no threads left. But it made no difference the cowl still shook the same and was still a wet noodle with the roof off.
One day I was doing some suspension work and I found it easier to jack up the car without the frame stiffeners installed. So I uninstalled the stiffeners and went for a ride without them. I noticed no difference!
So for my car the Vette 2 Vette stiffeners were a waste of money. I did sell them years later and got half my money back.
Maybe for others it helps I don't know!!

 

I found a big difference with the roof off. Going out of our development we have two big dips in the road. With the roof off and stored in the back of the car the creaking and cracking of the clear stored roof was unnerving. After I installed the V2V frame stiffeners, no sound. That alone was worth it for me.

 

im convinced that not all c4 frames are created equal from the factory. Somewhere on this forum there was a guy who re-welded the pinch welds continuously rather than the spot welds from the factory. iirc he reported fantastic results.

i think its pretty clear these work in varying degrees from “yeah a teenie bit better” to “no more flex its awesome”.

Personally i think it comes down to that particular frame and its original spot welds and current condition of the spot welds.

i appreciate the time you took to make the vid, and the time tom took to make the flex vid.

personally i feel like if the vette2vette bars were that great, the manufacturer would make a before and after vid and publish it to youtube. maybe they have. but even a simple phone has a vibration meter these days. all you would need to do is secure a cheap phone with a g meter enabled vibration recorder, in say three locations. drive the exact same course with varying degrees of bumps, and compare them before and after. thats just basic business and it would provide the indisputable evidence that is needed to end the opinion threads these always end up being.

 

My intent is just to document and share my build, not necessarily do something groundbreaking at every turn or sell anyone on doing what I chose. Every build has a different use case and needs. You are 100% correct that the C4 hasn't had much love for a long time but nostalgia is starting to kick in for those of us old enough and the "retro car" (80s and 90s aesthetic) is starting to become popular more widely. Factory reproduction parts like you mentioned are definitely needed but I don't have many contacts in that part of the industry. My background is more in the performance aftermarket and I am aware of a few companies currently developing some serious upgrades for the C4 (I'm not talking about stuff for the Gen II LT, its day in over). The SEMA Show is in a couple weeks and I'll be there bugging them for updates and begging them to put them in my hands first.

 

You might be onto something there.

I'm going to look for that thread, sounds interesting.

 

@Chase_GHT I actually stumbled onto your video this evening before reading this thread. Regarding the video quality, well done!

I wonder if this could be considered an alternative or supplement to the bracing on a convertible. Or is this just targeted to coupes? What are the actual claims of v2v about its intended use and benefits?