antenna

The whole thing sound's like BS from someone trying to sell his product.

LS1Tuner

>>What has this guy done to the motor to give him 425rwhp? Heads and >>cam? He's only running 10.5 compression. Where is all the power coming >>from?
>>He's got a TH350?

>>3.07 gears?

>>I think he's blowing smoke

Lol, im blowing smoke eh??? do you realize that im about 20 rwhp under what i actually expected from my combination. If you know anything about ls1 setups, youd realize how easy a CNC Ported ls6 head, 227/230 cammed setup would make 425-450 rwhp. A couple guys just got 425 rwhp on a stock headed ls1 with cam only and a couple bolt-ons. Realize what your screaming before you claim "BS".

All this power??? stock ls6's make 380-390 rwhp with ONLY headers/exhaust. Everyone here would swap to an ls1 if they realized they could run 10's easily on motor with a stock bottom end/heads/cam package for cheaper than any of these miniram'ed 383 L98's or LT1 cars.

So bring your "built 15 mpg, Minirammed 383 or built LT1 to the track. I'll give you a second head start and then get better fuel mileage on the way home. (sorry everyone for the post, i just hate when people speak before they think)

LS1Tuner

What about the 3.07 rear, the TH-350 and the 10.5 compression

Geez, lotta questions to answer :) ill try not to sound like an butt because i think you are just curious and not bashing.

Stock replacement nitrous pistons are 10.5:1, i run alot of nitrous (300-350) so i dont want any more compression than need be. Heads/cam ls1's make 400-450 rwhp easily. The th350 has a better 1/4 mile gearing than the 4l60e or 700r4, i dont need the 700r4's deep first gear because im already launching the **** out of it trying to keep it from blowing the tires away (im looking in the 1.3-1.4 60 ft times).

The 3.07 gear isnt the best choice in a all motor setup. But i run 315/35/17 BFG Drag Radials when im running on the motor (bracket races etc). I get consistant 1.5/1.6 60 ft's on them, and with that short of a tire with the 3.07, its just like having a 28" tire with a 3.55-3.73 gearing.

With the 3.07 gears and 28" tires, i go through the traps at 6400 rpm....any more gear and id be way over geared for the 145-150 trap speed I expect.

3.07's with my 25" tires goes through traps at 6000 rpm @ 130 mph or so (im not exact, so its close)

So only thing ill swap to is about a 3.27.3.33

LS1Tuner

the zf6 bolts right up, but its Wayyyyyyyyyyy easier to use a t56 from a camaro/firebird in the swap. and it doesnt cost much to get it with the ls1


Im not selling ANY product, im just trying to help for you guys that are going to do a C4 /LS1 swap. But since i dont see any appreciation for the info, im just going to delete all my posts, and next time someone is looking for info on a swap ill be sure to not help and say a word..... Geeeeezzzzzzzz you try to help people and you get nothing but bashed....


[Modified by LS1Tuner, 1:42 AM 4/13/2003]

Ikester

I would upgrade to an LT4 specs. Lots of torque and great starting point! :yesnod:

Eric Fischer

Don't let a few bad apples ruin it for the rest of us.

I, for one, thoroughly enjoyed the information that you posted. In fact you got me seriously thinking of taking on a project like this :thumbs: The LS1 is a great motor and the C4 a great chassis so a hybrid of the two makes one helluva car.

Please don't be discouraged by a few skeptics and do keep us informed of your progress.

TreyZ28

my friends Z06 = 35x RWHP with exhuast.
LS6 have great manifolds, so you need long tubes to gain anything.

not doubting your info/swap/abilities

I'm just saying 10's with 425rwhp + th350 + 3.08 gears aint happening.
I also think you need to rethink that race weight. Slicks and all the safety equipment will add a good bit of wieght (ie a cage, safety loop ect)

I'm guessing 3300 lbs at the end of the track :thumbs: :steering:

antenna

I agree,
"I'm just saying 10's with 425rwhp + th350 + 3.08 gears aint happening."

My point on your compression is that it is too low to be getting big hp/cube on motor only.

You are claimig 425rwhp out of motor only and I, again, just don't see where that is coming from. You say the car is streetable and get's good mpg, and this is all because it's an LS1 block. It doesn't add up that way.

And again, even if you had the 425rwhp it won't give you 10s.

You say the 3.07 is the right gear for your 700+ nitrous runs that may happen some day. That doesn't change the fact that 3.07 is the wrong gear for your motor only runs.

I still think that if you ever do get the 300 shot to hook up, you will begin a series of driveline failures.

antenna

"i just hate when people speak before they think"

Look, just because you say all this doesn't mean it's true. I did think about it, it didn't seem right and that's why I said what I said.

You are the one making all the claims for the LS1.

I don't see why you think the LS1 with heads and cam and exhaust is going to be such a big change from an LT1 with all the same mods. So you save some weight, I'll give you that but where does all the horsepower come from just because it's a LS1?

dnovotny

Don't want to flame, but did you read any of the posts above. Ls1's with heads, cam and headers regularly make 400-450 rwhp with stock ci. Just because you've chosen not to inform yourself about these engines doesn't mean it's any less true. If you'd like to educate yourself, check out ls1.com or ls1tech.com to see that these numbers aren't hard to achieve, but rather typical for those mods. Stock '01-'02 ls1 engines put down 300+ rwhp. Stock '02-'03 Ls6 350+ rwhp.

'91 GTA, '01 T/A WS6

Curveit

:thumbs: Thanks for the info on the swap. The LS motors have a lot of potential, and are the future. They're showing up in a lot of rods around here, and this week end I saw one in a '61 Vette. I heard rumors of veri-timing cams, possibly on the next gen Vette. That'll bump things to a whole new level.
You might check into a 1st gear timing retard(MSD I think) to help with the launches. Just my .02



:chevy

sturtzy85L98

Hey antenna.

Why is it that every post you make has to lead to some type of argument? It sounds to me like LS1Tuner has thoroughly researched what he is posting and also has first hand experience.

How many LS1 conversions have you completed????? Do you even have any experience with the LS1?????

If the answer is what I think it is (0), maybe you should keep your comments to yourself.

Maybe we should have a forum specifically designated to immature individuals who enjoy making complete ***** of themselves by spouting off about things they have no facts to back up, and the adults can use this one.

Sounds like a sweet set-up to me Ls1Tuner. Sorry for the non-technical related post, but this guy is ruining the post.

Sturtzy




[Modified by sturtzy85L98, 1:22 AM 4/14/2003]

bill mcdonald

No no, there is appreciation here!
I have been thinking about this for a bit since you posted. Thanks :thumbs:
:cheers:

CorvetteZ51Racer

[QUOTEI don't see why you think the LS1 with heads and cam and exhaust is going to be such a big change from an LT1 with all the same mods. So you save some weight, I'll give you that but where does all the horsepower come from just because it's a LS1?[/QUOTE]

It will be a lot better on the LS1 than the LT1 because of 3 major things:

1) The LS1 valve angle is only 15 degrees, compared to 23 degrees, which means that air moving through an LS1 intake port has less of a turn to make, and therefore tends to have better intake flow for a given valve diameter, valve lift, and port volume than a comparable 23 degree head. Why do you think the SB2.2 heads flow nearly 400 CFM? A LOT of it has to do with the 12 degree valve angle (of course, a lot of it also has to do with the 245 cc intake ports and the 2.18" intake valves)

2) The shape of the LS1 port. Don't know if you've ever seen the LS1 port, but it is VERY tall and narrow. As a general rule, air likes to flow along the roof of a port because it decreases the radius of the turn the air has to make to enter the cylinder. Combine a tall port with a narrow valve angle, and you have a nice flowing head. Take a look at flow numbers for ported LS6 heads. They're only ~205cc ports, but they can flow well over 300 cfm @ 0.600" lift.

3) the intake manifold is actually designed correctly! An intake manifold's runner length is supposed to be tuned to the desired RPM of peak VE by the use of the Helmholtz resonator model. The LS1 has runners which are (I believe) ~7" long, which, when you add in the length of the intake port in the head, approximately corresponds to the half wavelength of a 5600 RPM Helmholtz resonator...nicely corresponds to the power peak of the LS1 motor. The LT1 runners, by contrast, are only about, what 3-4" long? Let's assume that they're 3.5" long. That corresponds (when you add in the length of the LT1 head's intake port) to the half wave at 6700 RPM....a LOT higher than the power peak of the stock motor. This is one of the reasons why the MiniRam (which is nearly identical in design to the LT1 intake) is not a good choice for lower RPM L98 motors.

antenna

That's good, 15 degrees valve angle is better. I did think that aftermarket heads for sb Chevy were available with low valve angles. I know it is a big improvement but I didn't know this was only available in stock LS1 heads. Is this true?

Let's go through the intake thing. I don't understand where the 7" has anything to do with halfwave of anything.

5600rpm = 93 rev per second.
1100 ft/sec = speed of sound
1100 ft/93= 11.8 feet

So, during the time the engine @5600rpm, makes one revolution, sound will travel 11.8 feet. I think this is right.

For some part of this revolution the intake may be open, if it's the right revolution. But anyway, my question is this.

Where does 7" come into this?

CorvetteZ51Racer

A helmholtz resonator is like an organ pipe. If you can get the intake runner to resonate at the RPM where you want to have peak VE, you will get a ram tuning effect, where the pressure waves inside the intake runner will helping to pack more air into the cylinder, thus boosting your VE. The equation which describes a helmholtz resonator is:

n = c / (2*PI) * sqrt(A / (V * L))
where:
n = frequency in Hz
c = speed of sound in air
A = area of the resonant chamber (runner cross sectional area)
V = volume of the resonant chamber (volume of the runner and the port in the head)
L = length of the resonant chamber (distance from plenum to intake valve)

If you run through these calculations solving for L at a frequency of 93.33 Hz (or 5600 RPM), you'll find the full wave resonator length. If you take the half wavelength (L/2) and subtract the length of the port in the head, you'll find yourself close to ~7"


[Modified by CorvetteZ51Racer, 7:32 PM 4/14/2003]

antenna

I understand the idea of a tuned intake and I guess that's what you are talking about. It just seems that the length and volume of the intake runner and head port are too small to work at 93 hz. I'm thinking of a pipe organ for a low note. It seems like the volume of the pipe below the cut is very large. Remember the Mopar cross ram intake from the 60s? The length on that was about 30" if I remember right.

I used A=3, V=18 and L=6, and I got n=29.16, if I did the math properly, and that's far from a given.
I know n and c but I don't have any idea what the others really might be. Can you give some rough numbers for the other values so we can see how the formula will work out?
I believe some motorcycles use a big chamber to tune their intake system. I think they are running a very high rpm and the chamber is much larger than an intake runner and port. They should require a smaller volume than an engine turning 5600.

LS1Tuner

You guys just got way to complicated.


But you guys should check out LS1Tech.com and they have a conversion/swap section. lots of guys swapping ls1's.

Look at some of the guys running high 10's at 3400 race weight. Youll see a few guys in the mid 10's @ 3000 lbs on their heads cam cars.

One guy just went 9.9 on a stock longblock car with a crap load of nitrous

CarAteMyMoney

Would the same swap principles apply to any of the truck GEN 3's like the 5.3 or the 6.0 engines? It might not save weight but i bet it would be a ton of fun to drive (and my L98 is a piece of crap anyway)

LS1Tuner

the new 4.8/5.3 and 6.0 are all the same....but if your going to spend the money just get a ls1, its within 500 bucks price diff