Saisling

Hey all...
I'm knew here.
In the market for a C4.

I've been looking at 91-96 Vettes, but I recently stumbled upon a vet owned by a friend of a friend. It's an 84 and has Cross Fire Injection. It's in absolute gorgeous condition, however, with only slightly over 50K original miles! He wants $8K for it... What do you all think?

I've got experience with TPI. I restored an 87 Z28 with a 305TPI setup. I've never played with Cross Fire. Never really gotten into throttle body injection. I knew a guy that had an 83 Camaro with Corss Fire and he raved about it, but I always felt like I'd rather have a carbuerated engine if I couldn't have TPI ;-) Of course, thats just my biased opinion on TBI injections systems.

This vette is in such good shape, though and I don't think that asking price is too crazy either. It's making me consider buying it. Should I hold out for a 91-96 w/ TPI or give the 84 a shot?

What was the HP figure on the Cross Fire motor? I'm guessing it was prbably somewhere right around 200hp w/ maybe 170hp or so to the wheels???

I've been reading the posts here for a few days and a lot of you seem really knowledgable. THis place seems like a great resource.

Thanks in advance for your help/opinions.

Frizlefrak

Offer him $7K for the car. Buy the car. Then go here for advice
http://www.crossfire.webhop.net/

There is nothing wrong with the crossfire engine. It is as reliable as any other EFI engine, and can be made to run with the TPI engines fairly easily.

_freakmonkeydogboy_

:withstupid: but it and if nothing else, convert it to TPI :D

grumpyvette

heres the crossfire intake GUARANTEED TO RUN OUT OF AIRFLOW BY 4000RPM

heres the Z-28 CHEVY BASE




the EDELBROCK SY1 (no longer made but available most of the time (EBAY)

is the IDEAL lower intake to use!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...category=34198


heres the best curently available choice made by OFFENHAUSER




buy swapping to a high flowing intake base, and a cam like the crane #114132 that will allow you to use that extra air flow and adding a custom intake lid you can have a significant increase in hp , easily 60hp






[Modified by grumpyvette, 6:51 PM 4/30/2003]

sumoboy

Quote: I've never played with Cross Fire. Never really gotten into throttle body injection.
Why start? Go right to TPI.


If it's in nothing needed at all condition ,I'd start at $6,500 and go no higher that 7 but is that with a Md state insp? One owner and what shape is it in. If it was me ,I would look for a 85+. You can find someone on here that will do a carfax for you also.


[Modified by sumoboy, 1:55 PM 4/30/2003]


[Modified by sumoboy, 2:08 PM 4/30/2003]

84VaVette

I came across a similar 84 almost two years ago. I bought it, it was my first fuel injected Vette. It's been a solid car, and I like all the low end torque. Never ran it at the track, but I have autocrossed it. Handles superbly. Yeah, more power would be nice, but I get compliments from the local Vette club all the time on the car. At least around here, you just don't see many 84s in good, much less great condition. I've left it mostly stock, but there is all kinds of good info on the crossfire forum mentioned.

fast84

the hp rating is 205

Bitter Knight

Don't let the fact that it's a crossfire keep you from owning a Vette. I have an '84 and I love it. True, it's not the fastest around, but that can always be changed. If you want to work with the crossfire, do it, if you want to make it a tuned port, do it, it will be your car, do what you like (actually, do what you can afford :D) But the bottom line is that it's still a Corvette--it's gonna be a fun car!

Saisling

Thanks, everyone, for the replies.

I'm gonna go have a look at it again and take it for a drive and see how it feels. And, Grumpyvette, thanks for posting those pics of the intake.

To start, I'd pretty much just be enjoying the Vette on the road and leaving it mostly stock. But like everythign else I've owned... I'm sure I'd start toying with it eventually. It's good to know there are some decent aftermarket parts and whatnot available. I'm always game for playing with something new as well.

As usual, I'll live by the addage "How fast can you afford to spend?" :lol:

CFI-EFI

Here is MY take on the Crossfire vs TPI engines. Stock, the CF makes more torque, way down low. The TPI has more air flow capacity, and while it will rev somewhat higher and make more HP than a CF, it also is rpm limited by air flow. The long TPI runners build a strong midrange but choke off a high HP number. TPIs are expensive to do a lot to. You have a base, runners, and a plenum. Change out all three (items, 4 pieces) and you've dropped some big bucks. The plus is, you CAN buy these parts. With a Crossfire, you are largely on your own. I've been fooling with my CF for several years, now, and I've had a lot of fun. I have cut 2 full seconds off the 1/4 mile time, without spending a fortune. I have less in ALL my modifications than a good TPI rplacement manifold package would cost. A 4000 rpm limit? I shift mine at 6000 rpms. I still have the factory cam, timing chain, heads, ex manifolds, etc. AND factory CF intake casting. The long block is untouched. As you can see, I have a Crossfire. I AM biased. They are NOT the fastest Corvettes, not even close. But to go really fast in any L83 or L98 C4, you need a completely different induction system. If that is where you want to go, it makes little difference which you start with. An $8000.00 (or less) '84 leaves you a bigger budget to "play with" for improvements. I hope I have laid down some factors, that help. Either way, good luck, and...

RACE ON!!!

Dominic Sorresso

Saisling,

The Xfire is a sleeper. Just like the kind of car a 70 Nova was with 307 tags on the fender and a 396 stuffed in the engine bay. The problem with the Xfire is that most go fast stuff is shadetree mechanic stuff. You can't go to Lingenfelter and get a new manifold or top end kit for it. It stone dead reliable and can have tons of torque. So if you like to DIY, the rewards are significant. If you can find a Z-51, you'll have the best race suspension Chevy ever built for the street. Good luck. Here's some stats from my CFI:

275rwhp@4800rpm/347rwtq@3800rpm
13.6 at 100mph
3.07 gears, on motor, stock tires.

:seeya :hurray:


[Modified by Dominic Sorresso, 8:35 PM 4/30/2003]


[Modified by Dominic Sorresso, 8:36 PM 4/30/2003]

grumpyvette

first,its the combo of the intake (offy or EDELBROCK SY1)and cam (CRANE 114132) combined that make 60 hp , both intakes require a custom made upper lid to fit your cfi throttle bodies. (buy a edelbrock SY1 its the very best)the offy needs minor clearancing for the winshield whipper motor.
go to this site and read EVERTHING in altenate induction, btw a good set of high flow cylinder heads adds to the hp by about 35-50 more, (DEPENDS ON THE HEADS THAT YOU CHOOSE,(AFR.195cc work well!)
http://www.crossfire.homeip.net:81/c...nate+Induction
http://www.hotautoweb.com/Images/intake2.jpg

yes its well worth the trouble!

the edelbrock SY1 intake base flows enough air for 6500rpm and 475hp with a single 850cfm holley carb on a 377cid engine,(BEEN THERE DONE THAT SEVERAL TIMES) the stock chevy cross ram base is EXTREMELY RESTRICTED

look closely, the upper picture is stock cross fire intake manifold ports. the lower picture is ports opend to the max. stock intake ports flow about 367cfm.modified heavily about 210cfm, a SY1 flows about 280cfm with minor port cleanup, that a potential for well over a 100hp advantage

Dominic Sorresso

Grumpyvette,

As an example, the numbers on my motor come by way of using the stock Xfire manifold, ported and Extrude Honed. The TB's are bored to 2.13".
The cam is a CompCams Marine Grind using 1.6 ratio rockers for a 520/528 lift and 212/218 duration @ .050". The heads are stock TFS 23d with 64cc chambers. CR estimated at 10.3:1. Also the TB's are parallel plumbed using 80# injectors at 10psi. :chevy

ToddC4

I fear you guys are all nutty.

The Cross fires would be lucky to plant down 150hp at the rears on a good day. When they were new, not 20 years old! Unable to modify for all practical purposes, and untra costly to do so if you wanted for minimal gains. Keeping the intake is not an option even if you want to try to run with L98 cars, which are also slow! Plan on a complete intake change.

The chassis is very unique for finding parts. Good luck with things like wheel bearings, springs, shocks, brakes. They're all different. And more expensive even if you can find them. Wheels/tires are small. The ride may have been nice and tight 20 years ago, but it's whipped now most likely.

Any other year would be a better bet IMO. Price doesn't stand out as being super great. Unless it's perfect. If so, buy it and drive it without messing with it. Too costly to be a runner. By comparison, I picked up my '89 6 speed for $6000 with lots of oil leaks and 150K miles. A non-issue when a motor swap was the first thing planned.

Yeah, they're sleepers allright! And no-waker-uppers too! ;-)

You can make a Dodge Rampage go fast if you dump enough money into it! I've seen it done but it's a long and hard journey. You'd be much happier with an '85 or up unless you really like fabrication.

But I've been wrong before.

Just pick up a parts catalog and look for parts for an '84. Normal service parts. That should be your first step.

Being in the industry, trust me, even today, it is VERY true what they say about first year production models. With very few exceptions.

Jedi

Hey toddC4 i think your nutty too :lol:

I have found no problem getting parts for my 84 what so ever.
You must have been looking with your eyes closed.
The wheels and tyres are no smaller than say a 85 or 86 so how is that a bad point.(You wouldnt make that point about a 86 tpi)
As for being ulta costly to modify for minimal gains, that is just nonsense.
True you cant buy induction parts as easy as you can for a tpi, but there are options(which do NOT cost a fortune).

You say youve been wrong before ...well i think your wrong again.
You obviously know little about the cross-fire, and typically just slag the cars off (a little silly i think)

Its about time people stopped putting down the 84 vettes and just accepted them as being a slightly differerent member of the family.
(Not a disease or plague that needs wiping out) :mad :mad :mad


Although i am probably banging my head against a brick wall. :banghead:

ToddC4

I'm only basing my comments on the people I have talked to directly about their '84's. I have also been there and done that with L98's and all sorts of intakes. To start off with, TBI is a poor excuse for fuel injection. In fact, it removes half of the advantage when it's not multiport. It's just one small step up from a carb. Add to that the intake manifold that will never support high rpm use. Some may feel that the crossfire makes plenty of HP for them. It does for many people! Some may be perfectly happy with it. I personally think the L98's all the way up to 91 were horribly underpowered and only good for boat or towing motors. GM engineering would agree. Hence the LT5.

You may have found oil filters and spark plugs for your '84 allright. That's not what I'm referring to. Pick up an Ecklers or Mid America and tell me how you fare. Race chassis parts are very hard to find. As well as OEM replacements.

There are plenty of options and things you can do to make power on a CFI system. But not big power. Maybe L98 power if you're lucky. Why spend all that time to still make tiny HP? Start with the L98 and go from there. So much easier.

I know that we all tend to defend what we have purchased to the death. I've been there. I'm not saying that they are bad cars by any means. Lots about them are cool and interesting. I'm just talking about ease of ownership and ease of making power. We could argue this until we're green in the face and I'm sure not here to insult any of you guys with '84 cars! Far from it. You're taking that the wrong way. For a guy starting out who wants to make power without going straight to a Mini Ram or something, CFI is not a good starting point.

I'm sorry you thought I was putting them down. Far from it. They are cool and unique. Just not powerhouses.

HWoods

Guys, I have owned my 84 since 1986. I know that Dom has had his since it was new. His car definatley puts out horse power and torque numbers that rival an LT1. It has been on the dyno, so his numbers are verified. I know a guy here in Houston that has a 383 in his 84. Still runs the cross fire with a proted intake and he tells me he really enjoys spanking the LT1's. His words not mine. My 86 makes substaintial horsepower. But I still enjoy my 84. It does have the same tires, wheels and all same suspension components as the 85, 86, and 87 Vette. All the parts interchange. It has better springs if you like the stiff ride as GM softened them up after 84 due to still, rough ride, but I like it. I don't like hitting a bump and feeling my car still swaying 5 miles down the road. With my 84, I feel it once and we are done with it. Enjoy your car.

Frizlefrak

Herein lies the problem. You're believing what people tell you without researching it yourself. You mentioned parts availability, such as wheel bearings, springs, shocks, and brakes being different and unavailable. BUNK. These are the same as any early L-98, or are interchangeable. And no, they are not costly. Normal service parts; All readily available. An 84 is no more expensive to maintain than any other C4...(BTW, your 84 won't milk you for half a grand for an opti-spark if you get the engine wet either)

As for power, underneath the induction system lies the same 350 SBC. With all the same power potential. As Grumpy mentioned, you have options for the intake, which also includes the X-Ram, if the 1/4 mile thing is your game. Speed costs, how fast do you want to go? Yes, you will hit a power barrier at some point, just like you will with an L-98.

I'm not defending it because I own one, I'm merely stating facts. I know you're not trying to insult anyone, and that is kinda refreshing on this board. But work on verifying some of the "facts" before you post them.

MrNuke

Damn I wish I had one of those HUGE :bs flags... :rolleyes:

First of all, since when are "....L98's, which are also slow...." Slow? Bone stock low 14's high 13's is slow??? Compared to a viper maybe... :confused:

I agree that the available parts and performance upgrades is little for the SF, and I'd get a newer year as it IS less headaches (I heard a LOT of fun sotries about trying to tune those dual TBI's).

But I have to disagree on the handling part. '84 z51 vettes were and ARE still the best handling vettes on the road.. If you want a road racer, buy an '84 and drop a nice powerfull engine in it.. I personally wouldn't buy one with the stock CF and drive it around, as the first fbody or rustang that challenges you would beat it..But if you are into looking good and not any racing at all, go for it.. :cheers:

ToddC4

I don't drive an LT1 car, nor would I due to the power/vs/cost equation comparing a modified L98 to a modified LT1. Extra cost for no extra power.

I'm not trying to start anything, but I see some of the same misconceptions that I see on thirdgen.org or anywhere else on the board.

You guys may have plenty of friends that beat LT1's with their L98's stock VS stock. And they're all on crack. Same as the ones who say they dyno the same as them. The LT1's are going to be a solid 25hp more on a dyno. Stock vs stock.

Putting a 383 under cross fire has to be one of the most crazy ideas I have ever heard. Where did he find aftermarket heads with those peanut ports? Or are they the same OEM heads with a 383? Either way, you could build 420CI under a cross fire and spray NOS on it and say how great CFI was. Duh. It's making a square peg fit in a round hole. Like dumping money into an F-car to make it run with Y-cars. Sure, it can be done, but at what cost? You guys think I'm just talking crap about the '84's but I'm not. I'm just saying that they are not a good choice at all for making power. Why the hell not pay the same money for 10 times the intake with the next year? If you're shopping from scratch?

Of course under the intake you have the same rotating assembly. I don't remember me contesting that. Why buy a car that you know you have to change the intake on right off the bat? A whole lot of work. Changing ECM's, wiring harnesses, sensors..... Think about it!

If you want a CFI car, then I have no reason not to get an '84. Or an '82 for that matter.

L98's are slow compared to a VIPER? Are you all on crack? These cars are not made in Italy. They're just RWD cars with a low rpm engine! Jeez guys. Any LS1 car on the road will demolish any stock car on this board. Except a freaking ZR1 but that's not what we're talking about.

L98's may be good compared to some, but the industry has moved on and here we all are left with 20 year old technology and bad intakes. Even the L98 intake is very poor, but let's not get into that. We also have to keep in mind that this board thinks the best intake out there is the Super Ram for all out performance. Man, I'm really opening a can here, aren't I? ;-)

In addition, I never once said 84's handled poorly. Why would I? I said it was hard to find race parts and chassis parts. Before the chassis change in '88-89, all the parts are harder to come by. I'm surprised that any of you could even argue that one. That was one of the hard and fast rules I kept when looking for cars. Had to be a 6 speed, L98, with the new suspension. Otherwise, good luck. Like I said, I have looked, and pick up a catalog and look for yourself.

Or just go buy the car. Geez! Trying to help a guy out is all.

This board is funny sometimes. ;-)