SkarodoM, I don't think anybody really cares one way or the other..... it's just that nobody can ever post hard numbers to back up any claim on an apples to apples basis. If they could, I'd probably reconsider my views (and my choice of heads on the motor I'm building:D).

Bottom line is, a reworked head of any manufacturer being compared to an "as cast" AFR out of the box just isn't a valid comparison......even it it did come close. Do that same handwork to the AFR and then you get a valid comparison. As a side note, AFR published flow rates are dead nuts (I've posted my bench numbers here on several occasions), whereas other aftermarket heads seem to be a little......uhhhhhh........"optimistic". No, no stock in that company here, but I do want the best I can get in a 10 thousand dollar motor, and I'm not gonna save a few hundred on an inferior product.

JMHO.......... :cheers:

 

no stock in them here i just think they are the best out of the box head out there bar none and if i was getting a different set of heads i would make sure they were cnc ported instead of hand ported ones for consistency :cheers:

 

Perhaps they've changed their ports again? In the past based on testing I've done & trusted friends have done on their own calibrated sf600's have shown the AFR flow #'s to be a bit optimistic. They used to be way off, but in recent years seem to be closer to reality.

FWIW, I wouldnt compare an as-cast AFR port to a worked one. That was actually where I was going, buying as cast stuff & having someone port them with your specific app. in mind along with using higher quality components is the way to go IMO if you can afford it :).

Good luck with your stuff,

-Phil

 

Yeah, we're getting closer to each other now, I agree on buying the castings too. If I had it to do over again, there'd be no contest on that one for me..... AFR's setup (installed spring height), debris laden passages, etc. was just terrible on my heads when I got them. Chalk it up to my inexperience in doing any recent buildups :lol:
I just read the link on your sig, and it appears you have a ton more experience than I do on the subject, but the point remains that my heads tested within 3 CFM of published rates at every point (some above, some below), and with 3 hours of hand work I now get 292/218 @ .600 with the velocity of 195s! Until I see comparable numbers from an actual bench, I gotta go with what I know :cheers:

 

[QUOTE]

I think you're taking what I said somehow other than it was intended. They make an awesome casting, and the ports are decent (better than they used to be for sure), but most any head guy with alot of exprience can do better using their own valveob & portshape :). Still.. not saying there's anything wrong with them :).


You guys all have stock in AFR? Just curious, seems like most think they're the end-all of head stuff for some reason :D

I wish I did,might have gotten a better deal.Don't know about "end all" but there cnc program seems to be pretty good considering good hand work starts at about a grand and goes up from there,anybody can cut big ports with low velocity and decent .700 numbers.The one or two guys {fairly local to me}that have done work for me in the past are very good with BIG bbc heads but I don't know anyone {I know there is somewhere} that has put in the time with the sbc small port high velocity heads to be able to match or beat the flow of the AFR's for the money.More porters have taken more of my money over the years than I want to think about,some did good work ,some not so good.My experience has shown that I can leave the shop with a set of hand worked heads and go to another and will be told they can make the heads better every time.The results that some of these guys on the forum are getting are just to good to argue with.
:cheers:

 

Well I will be doing a head to head, I have Dyno info from my Dart 215's and will then put the new AFR's -210's on an will dyno them.

Straight up no changes but heads, I should have my new set of 210's Race Ready @ mid December.

Then based on my numbers I will determine if I need a cam change or not.

If what every one is telleing me is correct, I may gain 30-40 HP or more with the new AFR heads putting me closer to my 400RWHP goal.


Also, I will leave the Miniram on for the fist test, the probbaly change the cam and laeve the Minram on and dyno the setup then MAYBE change to the Superram and Dyno it.



[Modified by ld85, 5:18 PM 10/26/2003]

 

:iagree: with (wg87)
and cabboboy i will bet you if yours are now flowing 292 cfm at 600 lift they are now also at 215 or more cc too then the velocty is way down


[Modified by CORKVETTE1, 5:21 PM 10/26/2003]

 

Ive been waiting for this debate. Lets hear more . Almost Everyone says AFR is best, but the price IS HIGH. Any other heads worth talking about??? Not sure I can afford to go that fast.

 

ld85 i remember you saying you bought your heads as cast now are they cnced from afr just not with parts or are they raw castings that need ported just curious :cheers:

 

[QUOTE]Well I will be doing a head to head, I have Dyno info from my Dart 215's and will then put the new AFR's -210's on an will dyno them.

Straight up no changes but heads, I should have my new set of 210's Race Ready @ mid December.

Then based on my numbers I will determine if I need a cam change or not.

If what every one is telleing me is correct, I may gain 30-40 HP or more with the new AFR heads putting me closer to my 400RWHP goal.


Also, I will leave the Miniram on for the fist test, the probbaly change the cam and laeve the Minram on and dyno the setup then MAYBE change to the Superram and Dyno it.

[Modified by ld85, 5:18 PM 10/26/2003]

Thats going to be interesting to see,will you do before and after pulls close together or use previous before #s ? Also are you 400ci or better? Just curious, I think the 210s are going to be a little big for my 383 but I really bought them for bigger motor comming.

 

I just bought a set of these. http://www.protopline.com/123400000a.asp

Check out the flow #'s in the middle of the page. They flow very similar to the AFR 195's.

@ .200 lift they out flow the AFR's by 14 cfm on the intake side but give up 8 on the exhaust side.
@ .300 lift they out flow the AFR's by 5 cfm on the intake side and flow the same on the exhaust.

And I had them assembled and to my door in 3 weeks for hundreds less than the AFR's. But the proof will be in the numbers the motor lays down when its done.

 

Sorry if I confused any one,, the heads will caome bare, but Racer Ready and Indy Heads will assemble them using the same SS valves they use in their Hemi Heads.

 

I will use the Dart Dyno #'s I have from 2 weeks ago and the AFR #'s should happen before X-mas.

I have a 406 CI,, see sig.

 

I think alot of you guys must have sigs off or youre missing it. SkarodoM is in the cylinder head biz, of course he'll be proud of his own product...and by looking at his webpage he has the right to be. Nice #s Phil.

 

ld85 did you see if you could buy the comp ported ones bare also or just the race version ones? :cheers:


[Modified by CORKVETTE1, 8:44 PM 10/26/2003]

 

Just a note to show how good AFR is even though it is not a GM application - Muscle Mustang Magazine flow tested and then dyno tested a lot of Ford heads. They divided them into three catagories and have shown the results of the first two so far. AFR produced more power in both catagories than any other head. If they can make the best heads for Ford, I am sure they can do they same for GM. I can't wait to see the results of the third group of heads.


[Modified by DarthD, 11:57 PM 10/26/2003]

 

I believe you can buy them "as cast",,, bare "Race Ready" or bare CNC Comp, they still cost the same I just did this to speed up the delivery and because I have read that the AFR springs etc were suspect.

And I figured if I went to the 210-AFR Comp/Port version that they may very well out flow the Super Ram. Not the Miniram but likley outflwo the SR.

 

The only heads that I have considered buying, other that AFRs, are Edelbrock Victor Jrs.

The mid-lift flow is lower that AFR's stuff (isn't everybody's), but is decent and they flow well at .500 and above.

Jake