LT1 Intercooler -- Chris this means you!
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,293
Likes: 79
From: Jackson MI
LT1 Intercooler -- Chris this means you!
Chris put out the idea a while ago of relocating(or eliminating) the a/c condenser next to the radiator and putting an intercooler there. I'd like to open up a discussion to see what ideas we can come up with and identify some problems with it.
I found a core from turbonetics 3.5"Dx20.8"Wx10.5"H that will flow 1000HP or 1500 cfm. So for most people I think this core should suffice. Given the tunnel setup of the radiator shroud it would be better to have a longer intercooler rather than a taller intercooler. I believe the end tanks are 3" long as well bringing up the total length to 26". I don't have the exact measurements of the radiator shroud but I think that would be close to fitting. It can be shortened slightly if needed.
The next big thought is how to run the piping. Assuming the turbo is located at the powersteering reservoir it would seen to be fairly simple to swing the ouput to follow the path where the A/C condensor lines are currently. This would cause for some sharp 90* turns which may hurt but the plumbing would be simple enough.
Getting the piping to the intake I see two different options. The first one is running the pipe strait up and out of the shroud then send it to the intake, but I'm not sure if there is enough room above the shroud to do this. The second option would be to route it out of the shroud on the other side, on the very bottom. It could then be wrapped 180* to head back on the rear side if the fans then up between them and then directly into the intake.
Lets hear some ideas on this pros and cons.
I found a core from turbonetics 3.5"Dx20.8"Wx10.5"H that will flow 1000HP or 1500 cfm. So for most people I think this core should suffice. Given the tunnel setup of the radiator shroud it would be better to have a longer intercooler rather than a taller intercooler. I believe the end tanks are 3" long as well bringing up the total length to 26". I don't have the exact measurements of the radiator shroud but I think that would be close to fitting. It can be shortened slightly if needed.
The next big thought is how to run the piping. Assuming the turbo is located at the powersteering reservoir it would seen to be fairly simple to swing the ouput to follow the path where the A/C condensor lines are currently. This would cause for some sharp 90* turns which may hurt but the plumbing would be simple enough.
Getting the piping to the intake I see two different options. The first one is running the pipe strait up and out of the shroud then send it to the intake, but I'm not sure if there is enough room above the shroud to do this. The second option would be to route it out of the shroud on the other side, on the very bottom. It could then be wrapped 180* to head back on the rear side if the fans then up between them and then directly into the intake.
Lets hear some ideas on this pros and cons.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 2,872
Likes: 3
From: Wilmington NC
Brian,
That is exactly what i have been playing with, i removed my AC from the heater core box at the fittings and pulled it out completely. here is how I have loosely figured I would route everything.
turbo at resevoir with outlet facing dwon right in front of the crossmember and frame rail, there is room then to bring the plumbing under the crossmember into the area the coolant overflow tank used to be..
(I moved my tank over to make room for this plumbing, minimal fab work to make new holding brackets for it are necessary, very simple though)
..continue.. then take a left into the radiator shroud at the bottom right side of it. this would be the bottom inlet tank of the IC...
(tanks on bottom and top, not the sides)
..continue.. then have a core and end tanks to fit the entire spance of the AC condesor space
must force air through it or the cooling air would create a pressure behind/between IC and radiator and block incoming air reducing efficieny of the IC. then have a center outlet end tank up top and plumbing routing to throttle body would be virtually same as stock.
my turbo is going to be mounted at a 45* angle to the front of the passneger side cylinder head with the air inlet facing the fans at 45* and the intake pipe taking a 90* down between the fans to a large conical filter sitting horizontally slightly below the plane of the undercarriage to pick up cold air. this is my rough layout, and everything fit just fin. I chose this way so that there was enough room to relocate the power steering resevoir and have enough room for the radiator hoses to still be run in a similar fashion with little mnoddification. I am sure it can be done in other variations, but this seemed to be the cleanest most direct route with less turns in the system.
from turbo to IC there will be (2) 90* turns, and from IC to TB, (1) 90* exiting the top end tank, and a straight shot to TB. my coils and such are also being relocated to the rear of the manifold near the AFPR and new fuel line assembly.
lemme know what ya think.. I still plan onm relocating the A/C condensor to the rear of the car, I love my AC..
chris
That is exactly what i have been playing with, i removed my AC from the heater core box at the fittings and pulled it out completely. here is how I have loosely figured I would route everything.
turbo at resevoir with outlet facing dwon right in front of the crossmember and frame rail, there is room then to bring the plumbing under the crossmember into the area the coolant overflow tank used to be..
(I moved my tank over to make room for this plumbing, minimal fab work to make new holding brackets for it are necessary, very simple though)
..continue.. then take a left into the radiator shroud at the bottom right side of it. this would be the bottom inlet tank of the IC...
(tanks on bottom and top, not the sides)
..continue.. then have a core and end tanks to fit the entire spance of the AC condesor space
must force air through it or the cooling air would create a pressure behind/between IC and radiator and block incoming air reducing efficieny of the IC. then have a center outlet end tank up top and plumbing routing to throttle body would be virtually same as stock.
my turbo is going to be mounted at a 45* angle to the front of the passneger side cylinder head with the air inlet facing the fans at 45* and the intake pipe taking a 90* down between the fans to a large conical filter sitting horizontally slightly below the plane of the undercarriage to pick up cold air. this is my rough layout, and everything fit just fin. I chose this way so that there was enough room to relocate the power steering resevoir and have enough room for the radiator hoses to still be run in a similar fashion with little mnoddification. I am sure it can be done in other variations, but this seemed to be the cleanest most direct route with less turns in the system.
from turbo to IC there will be (2) 90* turns, and from IC to TB, (1) 90* exiting the top end tank, and a straight shot to TB. my coils and such are also being relocated to the rear of the manifold near the AFPR and new fuel line assembly.
lemme know what ya think.. I still plan onm relocating the A/C condensor to the rear of the car, I love my AC..
chris
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,293
Likes: 79
From: Jackson MI
I wanted to do my end tanks left and right instead of top to bottom. There have been lots of problmes with people that have ATI intercoolers and their cars heating up alot. The end tanks tend to block the airflow to the radiator. If you can keep the end tanks of the IC inline with the endtanks of the radiator you will keep the flow rate up more, making the IC and the radiator more efficient.
I do agree that the IC should take up all the cross sectional area in the shroud. This can be accomplished by moving the IC forward or back when mounting it. The large slope just infront of where it will go will actually be usefull then. You also want to make sure that you don't get the radiator and the IC right next to eachother. You don't need to start transfereing heat acrosss to the IC.
I'm not planning on relocating my coolant resevoir tank. I was going to mount the turbo on a 45 like you were, except I was going to point my discharge back toward the outside of the car and run the plumbing above the cross member. I'm not sure of the exact height that the turbo will be mounted so I can't say for sure, but it might be another way of looking at it.
When I was thinking of this I was trying to figure out how to do most of this with J bends instead of using 90* silicon elbows. Pricewise they aren't all the far off if you look at Turbonetics prices. And it creates a much smoother run for the air.
I do agree that the IC should take up all the cross sectional area in the shroud. This can be accomplished by moving the IC forward or back when mounting it. The large slope just infront of where it will go will actually be usefull then. You also want to make sure that you don't get the radiator and the IC right next to eachother. You don't need to start transfereing heat acrosss to the IC.
I'm not planning on relocating my coolant resevoir tank. I was going to mount the turbo on a 45 like you were, except I was going to point my discharge back toward the outside of the car and run the plumbing above the cross member. I'm not sure of the exact height that the turbo will be mounted so I can't say for sure, but it might be another way of looking at it.
When I was thinking of this I was trying to figure out how to do most of this with J bends instead of using 90* silicon elbows. Pricewise they aren't all the far off if you look at Turbonetics prices. And it creates a much smoother run for the air.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 2,872
Likes: 3
From: Wilmington NC
my fault on the cross member.. my tubing will be in front of the cross member and then run to the right and underneath the frame rail... i tried to run it above the frame rail, and it looks great with the hood open, but the headlights hit it when the you shut the hood. unless your running less then 3" aluminum tube like i am i don't see a way to make that work.
also, my top side IC end tank will actually be above the shroud plane if you follow... as in the core will stop at the shroud, but the end tank on top will come through the shroud where the center outlet will face rearward towards the throttle body. the hole will be cut to fit so it will remain very air tight forcing air through the core.
moving a smaller IC forward is still going to give you flow issues as your still shrinking the actual face area that air has to come through even though the tanks are out of the way. remember that the actual flow area of an IC is about 45% of the total core area, so on a 20 x 15 core, the overall area is 300 sq/in, so the actual flow area is ~135 sq/in. which is still going to contribute to a lack of airflow across the radiator.
my plan is to use larger cores in a thinner thickness as described by maximum boost. he states that a thicker core will not aid in cooling as well as more surface area subjected to fresh cooling air. and that by the time the cooling air has absorbed heat across the first 2 inches, it its absorbtion rate is almost cut by 75% across the last inch of core thickness. and more flow for cooling the radiator can be had by adding frontal area to thinner cores.
just my take on it though!
Chris
also, my top side IC end tank will actually be above the shroud plane if you follow... as in the core will stop at the shroud, but the end tank on top will come through the shroud where the center outlet will face rearward towards the throttle body. the hole will be cut to fit so it will remain very air tight forcing air through the core.
moving a smaller IC forward is still going to give you flow issues as your still shrinking the actual face area that air has to come through even though the tanks are out of the way. remember that the actual flow area of an IC is about 45% of the total core area, so on a 20 x 15 core, the overall area is 300 sq/in, so the actual flow area is ~135 sq/in. which is still going to contribute to a lack of airflow across the radiator.
my plan is to use larger cores in a thinner thickness as described by maximum boost. he states that a thicker core will not aid in cooling as well as more surface area subjected to fresh cooling air. and that by the time the cooling air has absorbed heat across the first 2 inches, it its absorbtion rate is almost cut by 75% across the last inch of core thickness. and more flow for cooling the radiator can be had by adding frontal area to thinner cores.
just my take on it though!
Chris
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,637
Likes: 2
From: Honeoye Ny
You could easily fit a water/air unit that would support 1500-2000hp without pressure drop in that space. then build a custom intake manifold using the bottom of a stealthram that fed the air into the side like (dare I say it) a ford. How much power do you want? Why not use a normal set of long tubes, y them into one 3 inch and put a thumper series where your storage compartment used to be. Just put a shallow floor in the box so it can house your radio and what not. then you can feed the I/c from the bottom. Nice and clean. The untrained eye would not even know there was a turbo until it was all over with. 
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,293
Likes: 79
From: Jackson MI
How do you get the pipe running strait down to go infront of the crossmember. Is your tubo put that close forward that the discharg goes strait down on the other side? From the number of 90* turns you described earlier, I'm a little confused.
I didn't think about the headlight hitting the piping. I can run 2.5 out of my discharge tube, I'll have to measure it when I get a chance to see if it fits. Its hard doing this at my desk, work is slow right now so i'm doing this to keep my mind occupied.
When I mentioned moving it the IC forward I didn't mean using a 10" high IC and stuffing it at the entry. The example I grabbed in the first one was just there that we can get a good IC to fit in the shroud. I ment if you can get one that is only an inch or so short you can keep the air from getting around it by moving it up slightly.
As far as thickness goes thinner is by far better, the logic behind that is strait forward. The thinnest I've seen is 3" which should fit in the shroud just fine.
Sticking the top end tank through the top of the shroud is a good idea, but I'm stil not sold on the bottom one. I'll have to think about it a little more.
I didn't think about the headlight hitting the piping. I can run 2.5 out of my discharge tube, I'll have to measure it when I get a chance to see if it fits. Its hard doing this at my desk, work is slow right now so i'm doing this to keep my mind occupied.
When I mentioned moving it the IC forward I didn't mean using a 10" high IC and stuffing it at the entry. The example I grabbed in the first one was just there that we can get a good IC to fit in the shroud. I ment if you can get one that is only an inch or so short you can keep the air from getting around it by moving it up slightly.
As far as thickness goes thinner is by far better, the logic behind that is strait forward. The thinnest I've seen is 3" which should fit in the shroud just fine.
Sticking the top end tank through the top of the shroud is a good idea, but I'm stil not sold on the bottom one. I'll have to think about it a little more.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 2,872
Likes: 3
From: Wilmington NC
BTF,
man your way behind the times.. that was my original idea..lol i was gonna mimic the STS setup, then got to thinkin.. might as well go conventional, after all, i had looked and looked and trying to get all 4 plumbing tubes in and out of that compartment looked like a friggin nightmare. at least up front, it will be easier to get to everything and no need to worry about the oil return. but leave it to you man..lol hey what would ya charge me to make one of them motor mounts like you have.. I have a 2' x 3' of aircraft grade 1/2" thick aluminum plate, enought to make mondo brackets for everything, but i am not having any luck working with it like cutting and such. t]my torch just don't cut it, my band sawblade flex's like a little bitch when i even get the sheet near it.. i need a mount man.. hook a brutha up! seriously though, if ya have a price in mind, i can send ya the piece of aluminum my local shop managed to cut..about 6" x 20", before it broke their band saw blade..lol lemme know man!
Chris
man your way behind the times.. that was my original idea..lol i was gonna mimic the STS setup, then got to thinkin.. might as well go conventional, after all, i had looked and looked and trying to get all 4 plumbing tubes in and out of that compartment looked like a friggin nightmare. at least up front, it will be easier to get to everything and no need to worry about the oil return. but leave it to you man..lol hey what would ya charge me to make one of them motor mounts like you have.. I have a 2' x 3' of aircraft grade 1/2" thick aluminum plate, enought to make mondo brackets for everything, but i am not having any luck working with it like cutting and such. t]my torch just don't cut it, my band sawblade flex's like a little bitch when i even get the sheet near it.. i need a mount man.. hook a brutha up! seriously though, if ya have a price in mind, i can send ya the piece of aluminum my local shop managed to cut..about 6" x 20", before it broke their band saw blade..lol lemme know man!
Chris
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,293
Likes: 79
From: Jackson MI
Originally Posted by Baldturbofreak
You could easily fit a water/air unit that would support 1500-2000hp without pressure drop in that space. then build a custom intake manifold using the bottom of a stealthram that fed the air into the side like (dare I say it) a ford. How much power do you want? Why not use a normal set of long tubes, y them into one 3 inch and put a thumper series where your storage compartment used to be. Just put a shallow floor in the box so it can house your radio and what not. then you can feed the I/c from the bottom. Nice and clean. The untrained eye would not even know there was a turbo until it was all over with.
You've been reading those STS posts too much
I'm trying to cut up the car as little as possible. I've looked into the water to air ones, but from what I've been told by people they tend to get heat soaked in normal traffic and then it takes forever to get them back to their normal operating temps. "their greatest advantage is also their greatest downfall" The water absorbs a great deal of heat, but then takes a long time to cool off.
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 2,872
Likes: 3
From: Wilmington NC
MN,
yes the turbo is mounted so that the discharge of the compressor housing is facing straight down in front of the crossmember, with the intake side facing the fan shroud at 45* like this:
like so, as soon as I get the T70 here I will snap some pics of it where it will be located, the GT45 looks like hercules in the engine bay and is a bad example..lol
but you should be able to get the jist of it this way. the 2 90's are from the pipe going straight down out of the compressor outlet, to the 90* turn parrallel to the ground and forward under the frame rail and into the area the overflow tank was, the other 90 is taking a left if facing forward into the bottom IC end tank.
follow?
Chris
it is tough to do this on microsft paint..lol
yes the turbo is mounted so that the discharge of the compressor housing is facing straight down in front of the crossmember, with the intake side facing the fan shroud at 45* like this:
like so, as soon as I get the T70 here I will snap some pics of it where it will be located, the GT45 looks like hercules in the engine bay and is a bad example..lol
but you should be able to get the jist of it this way. the 2 90's are from the pipe going straight down out of the compressor outlet, to the 90* turn parrallel to the ground and forward under the frame rail and into the area the overflow tank was, the other 90 is taking a left if facing forward into the bottom IC end tank.
follow?
Chris
it is tough to do this on microsft paint..lol
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,637
Likes: 2
From: Honeoye Ny
Actually Ive been thinking alot about vehicle dynamics and how all the hp in the world is little more then bragging rights if it doesn't hook. Centrilaization of mass is the name of the game.
You wanna remove the a/c, but your afraid of one little cut in the fiberglass where noone will ever see? if your careful when you cut you could always bond it back on. Well if you have no a/c you could always throw that evaporator in your watertank.
You wanna remove the a/c, but your afraid of one little cut in the fiberglass where noone will ever see? if your careful when you cut you could always bond it back on. Well if you have no a/c you could always throw that evaporator in your watertank.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 2,872
Likes: 3
From: Wilmington NC
**** I ain't affraid to cut stuff up.. just not the hood..lol 
that sumbitch is expensive and 40% of the front of the xcar to boot... lol
AC, gotta stay in the car.. I like to be comfortable, if i wanted to nix it, i would take lots of other stuff out.. this is gonna be a street car not a dragster.. thats what were are gonna do with the 85.. it will be a twin setup with the turbos mounted high and the hood reworked so that the inlets on the turbos are fit in tunnels on the hood.. big *** compressor blades spinning in the hood tunnels is COOL!
Chris
that sumbitch is expensive and 40% of the front of the xcar to boot... lol AC, gotta stay in the car.. I like to be comfortable, if i wanted to nix it, i would take lots of other stuff out.. this is gonna be a street car not a dragster.. thats what were are gonna do with the 85.. it will be a twin setup with the turbos mounted high and the hood reworked so that the inlets on the turbos are fit in tunnels on the hood.. big *** compressor blades spinning in the hood tunnels is COOL!
Chris
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,637
Likes: 2
From: Honeoye Ny
Originally Posted by lcvette
i can send ya the piece of aluminum my local shop managed to cut..about 6" x 20", before it broke their band saw blade..lol lemme know man!
Chris
Chris
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 2,872
Likes: 3
From: Wilmington NC
ahh.. isn't that cute.. it even has some suspension to it..lol lemme see what i can dig up in the way of mild steel in that thickness, could ya drill straight down through the top of the frame rail and put a big *** bolt through it to hold it in place?
just a thought, that way it could all be aluminum..
just a thought, that way it could all be aluminum..
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,293
Likes: 79
From: Jackson MI
Chris,
Here's what I don't get. You drawing is a bit unscaled, I think the crossmember is closer to the shroud, but that's beside the point. So the turbo is going directly above the crossmember. The discharge tube is on the top left side looking at the drawing. For it to go strait down on the other side of the crossmember isnt' compressor housing ramming against the fans?
I was moving my further back toward the engine so I had more room to put the intake piping going to the turbo. 4" takes a lot to turn downward.
Here's what I don't get. You drawing is a bit unscaled, I think the crossmember is closer to the shroud, but that's beside the point. So the turbo is going directly above the crossmember. The discharge tube is on the top left side looking at the drawing. For it to go strait down on the other side of the crossmember isnt' compressor housing ramming against the fans?
I was moving my further back toward the engine so I had more room to put the intake piping going to the turbo. 4" takes a lot to turn downward.
Last edited by mn_vette; Oct 5, 2004 at 05:12 PM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 2,872
Likes: 3
From: Wilmington NC
MN,
yes it is very tight at the fan shroud with the intake pipe.. the drawing is not scaled whatsoever, just did that to show the orientation of the turbocharger. if you get the angle turned enough, it works.. the GT45 did not, the T70 will, not sure on the comparison of the T70 to the T76 though.. may be a little different. I think the inlet on the T70 is 3.5" if i am not mistaken, maybe Antivenom can jump in here with the right measurement. a 4"er will be tough to get down there! will snap some pictures when i can!
gotta run..bowlin tonight!
Chris
yes it is very tight at the fan shroud with the intake pipe.. the drawing is not scaled whatsoever, just did that to show the orientation of the turbocharger. if you get the angle turned enough, it works.. the GT45 did not, the T70 will, not sure on the comparison of the T70 to the T76 though.. may be a little different. I think the inlet on the T70 is 3.5" if i am not mistaken, maybe Antivenom can jump in here with the right measurement. a 4"er will be tough to get down there! will snap some pictures when i can!
gotta run..bowlin tonight!
Chris
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,637
Likes: 2
From: Honeoye Ny
Originally Posted by lcvette
ahh.. isn't that cute.. it even has some suspension to it..lol lemme see what i can dig up in the way of mild steel in that thickness, could ya drill straight down through the top of the frame rail and put a big *** bolt through it to hold it in place?
just a thought, that way it could all be aluminum..
just a thought, that way it could all be aluminum..
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 2,872
Likes: 3
From: Wilmington NC
lol,
not aluminum threads, a 1/2" plat welded to the motormount like a double thick pad where it rests on the frame rail... then drill a hole through the aluminum and the frame rail adn use like a 10-12" bolt and nut to attach the mount to the frame rail all way down through the bottom of it. I figure there is only one stud and nut holding the oem mount to the k-member mounting pad, it whould be suffucuent up on the frame rail as well...no?
Chris
not aluminum threads, a 1/2" plat welded to the motormount like a double thick pad where it rests on the frame rail... then drill a hole through the aluminum and the frame rail adn use like a 10-12" bolt and nut to attach the mount to the frame rail all way down through the bottom of it. I figure there is only one stud and nut holding the oem mount to the k-member mounting pad, it whould be suffucuent up on the frame rail as well...no?
Chris
Safety Car
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,283
Likes: 0
From: Houston Texas
Originally Posted by bill mcdonald
Does anyone have the dimensions of the intercooler that black bart used on his car?
Racer
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 469
Likes: 0
From: Norfolk VA
I have stayed out of the turbo discussions thus far but....
I will measure my FMIC to give some dimensions. I have removed the AC condenser and I have had no problems with cooling (coolant or IAT temps) I run a bar and plate air-to-air FMIC. I have an inch or two between the radiator and the IC. Also I keep my fans on all the time so I have good airflow across both.
Also to address the turbo/ hood cutting comment made earlier, I am not sure you will be able to high mount a turbo that is big enough to feed a 350 or bigger V8 and not cut the hood for clearance.
I will measure my FMIC to give some dimensions. I have removed the AC condenser and I have had no problems with cooling (coolant or IAT temps) I run a bar and plate air-to-air FMIC. I have an inch or two between the radiator and the IC. Also I keep my fans on all the time so I have good airflow across both.
Also to address the turbo/ hood cutting comment made earlier, I am not sure you will be able to high mount a turbo that is big enough to feed a 350 or bigger V8 and not cut the hood for clearance.